Discussion:
Linux Advocacy is completely Dead......
(too old to reply)
h***@gmail.com
2007-09-11 01:21:58 UTC
Permalink
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
Another poster posts a couple of messages with topics like 'Linux is
free, Windows is not' and 'People would rather pay for Windows than
get Linux for free' and instantly they get hundreds of replies while
the so called Linux advocates messages get 3 at best replies and those
three are the same three people talking to each other.

Don't believe it?
Go look for yourself.

Linux advocacy is deader than yesterday's news about Brittany Spears.
She bombed at the MTV awards in case you have not heard.

BTW here is that posters google stats, which are sicko if you ask me,
get a life already:

Post Activity

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2004 44 99 78
2005 222 142 179 254 116 305 398 664 579 547 457 367
2006 373 950 1654 631 1923 1868 1855 2041 2166 1470 1715
1793
2007 2159 1953 2137 1871 1878 1482 1707 1497 257

I guess he had to work as a fresher fluffer in Sept so he is behind
the 'Mark', literally....

http://www.digg.com/users/schestowitz/news/dugg/page20

Like I said, sick.
Gordon
2007-09-11 05:59:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
That's because in the main they are NEWS or INFORMATION items. Do you
telephone CNN news to comment on their stories? Dumbass!
Post by h***@gmail.com
Another poster posts a couple of messages with topics like 'Linux is
free, Windows is not' and 'People would rather pay for Windows than
get Linux for free' and instantly they get hundreds of replies while
the so called Linux advocates messages get 3 at best replies and those
three are the same three people talking to each other.
Mainly from windows trolls, some of whom get "remuneration" from MS to do
such things...
Post by h***@gmail.com
Don't believe it?
Go look for yourself.
And your point is?
bob
2007-09-11 11:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
What I find amusing is that you come to this news group and complain that
someone is being an ass hole for posting information that we Linux users
find interesting when your only reason for posting is to be an ass hole.
--
“When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a
cross.”
- Sinclair Lewis.
Mara
2007-09-11 11:59:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:04:03 -0400, bob <***@home.org> wrote:

[crossposting left in for this post]
Post by bob
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
What I find amusing is that you come to this news group and complain that
someone is being an ass hole for posting information that we Linux users
find interesting when your only reason for posting is to be an ass hole.
No, its reason is to get you all to crosspost along with it, so it can pollute
several groups instead of one. If people would pay attention, this wouldn't end
up all over everywhere, and the troll wouldn't get what he's after. Please, just
stop.
--
A luser is someone who returns a perfectly good hammer to the hardware
store saying "There's something wrong with it.  I keep hitting my
thumb." --JB, in the Monastery
chrisv
2007-09-11 12:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
What I find amusing is that you come to this news group and complain that
someone is being an ass hole for posting information that we Linux users
find interesting when your only reason for posting is to be an ass hole.
Really. It's a Linux advocacy group. Get the fsck out if you're not
interested in advocating Linux.
Tim Smith
2007-09-11 17:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
What I find amusing is that you come to this news group and complain that
someone is being an ass hole for posting information that we Linux users
find interesting when your only reason for posting is to be an ass hole.
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-11 18:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by bob
What I find amusing is that you come to this news group and complain that
someone is being an ass hole for posting information that we Linux users
find interesting when your only reason for posting is to be an ass hole.
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
--
Warning: 10 days have passed since your last Windows reinstall.
Tim Smith
2007-09-11 19:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.

Combine that with your previous admission that you won't look at links
that might show your position is wrong, and it is obvious why your posts
are so full of errors.
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-15 10:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.
I rarely read *any* post from Roy.
And actually I prefer his posts over the garbage you and your ilk provide
Post by Tim Smith
Combine that with your previous admission that you won't look at links
that might show your position is wrong, and it is obvious why your posts
are so full of errors.
You might be hard pressed to find any messsage where I have stated that
I "will not look at links that might show..."

You have made up that claim out of full cloth naturally, just as Hadron
Quark is making up his "linux is perfect" lie

So come on, Tim "lying scum" Smith, provide the Msg-ID where I have stated
that
--
Tact, n.:
The unsaid part of what you're thinking.
s***@freenet.co.uk
2007-09-15 10:38:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.
I rarely read *any* post from Roy.
And actually I prefer his posts over the garbage you and your ilk provide
Same here. Occasionally a subjectline will tweak my interest but I usually
let them pass.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| ***@freenet.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-15 11:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.
I rarely read *any* post from Roy.
And actually I prefer his posts over the garbage you and your ilk provide
Same here. Occasionally a subjectline will tweak my interest but I usually
let them pass.
Apart from the fact that Erik Fs claims (or those of Hadron Quark or Tim
Hadron Smith) that Roy misrepresents stuff in his posts simply does not
wash. It is an all out flat lie of our resident astroturfers. As they are
unable to counter even a small quantity of it, they try to slag it off
completely as "fabricated / lies / misrepresentation / deception"

Erik F and his ilk are simply miffed that they can't possibly counter Roys
posts
--
Microsoft: The company that made email dangerous
And web browsing. And viewing pictures. And...
DFS
2007-09-15 11:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
Same here. Occasionally a subjectline will tweak my interest but I
usually let them pass.
Apart from the fact that Erik Fs claims (or those of Hadron Quark or
Tim Hadron Smith) that Roy misrepresents stuff in his posts simply
does not wash.
You're an idiot, dumbkopf. Roy Schestowitz is a lying, spamming idiot of
the worst kind. 50 posts a day, 365 days a year, for the past two years?

Some samples from the past week:

"Vietnam Switches to OpenOffice.org, Dumps Microsoft Office!": LIE
"Nothing New to Find in Vista, Apart from Microsoft Spin, Lies, and Hype":
LIE
"Russian Government Keeps Promise and Chooses Linux": LIE
"Music Takes a Free Software-like Route": LIE
"Linux Foundation to Extend Linux Lead in Printing": LIE
"GNU/Linux Approaches Dominance in Oracle Deployments": LIE
"Microsoft Admits It Likes Piracy, Tries to Get Children Addicted": LIE
"Microsoft Starts Smear Campaign Against Google's Products": LIE
"Microsoft Once Again Invades a Linux Conference": LIE

Get the picture?
Post by Peter Köhlmann
It is an all out flat lie of our resident astroturfers. As they
are unable to counter even a small quantity of it,
What's to counter? He usually posts news reports and ...snicker... quotes
from bloggers, often accompanied by his own misleading or outright lying
subject titles.

I know cola bozos consider what he does "advocacy", but it's a joke. He's
not even convinced about Linux - he still lists Windows skills on his
resume, meaning if someone pays him enough he'll gladly accept a Windows
development job. Just like you, Top Scum.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
they try to slag it off completely as "fabricated / lies /
misrepresentation / deception"
Which some of it is, of course.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Erik F and his ilk are simply miffed that they can't possibly counter
Roys posts
What's to counter? He reposts, to a newsgroup read mostly by a tiny number
of dedicated Linux fanatics, news items created or already reported by
others.
Linonut
2007-09-15 13:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Erik F and his ilk are simply miffed that they can't possibly counter
Roys posts
What's to counter? He reposts, to a newsgroup read mostly by a tiny number
of dedicated Linux fanatics, news items created or already reported by
others.
Self nuke in so many ways it isn't even funny!
--
Tux rox!
Cyberiade.it Anonymous Remailer
2007-09-16 00:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
You're an idiot, dumbkopf. Roy Schestowitz is a lying, spamming
idiot of the worst kind. 50 posts a day, 365 days a year, for the
past two years?
And not ONE of them can you even begin to refute. Not one point, not a
single issue, NOTHING.

You're a pathetic little loser, desperately trying to fling as much mud
in hopes some of it will stick.

Sorry about your luck. <snicker>
Linonut
2007-09-15 13:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Tim Smith
You only speak for a subset of Linux users. Those of us who like
information that is accurate, without purposefully deceptive subject
lines and out of context quotes, don't find them interesting.
"Those of us" being Hadron Quark, DFS, flatfish, Erik F and Tim Smith.
About the filthiest group you could find anywhere.
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.
I rarely read *any* post from Roy.
And actually I prefer his posts over the garbage you and your ilk provide
Same here. Occasionally a subjectline will tweak my interest but I usually
let them pass.
I usually find one or two interesting ones in every session. And some
of them I've already seen during my regular visits to Groklaw.
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
So you admit to not being a member of the set of people who prefer
accurate information and quotes that aren't out of context.
Laughing my ass off over that one. I know a guy like that at work.

We call him "Sphincter Boy".
--
Tux rox!
chrisv
2007-09-11 12:37:11 UTC
Permalink
One
*plonk*
John Bailo, Texeme.Construct
2007-09-11 17:56:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
Another poster posts a couple of messages with topics like 'Linux is
free, Windows is not' and 'People would rather pay for Windows than
get Linux for free' and instantly they get hundreds of replies while
the so called Linux advocates messages get 3 at best replies and those
three are the same three people talking to each other.
Don't believe it?
Go look for yourself.
Linux advocacy is deader than yesterday's news about Brittany Spears.
She bombed at the MTV awards in case you have not heard.
BTW here is that posters google stats, which are sicko if you ask me,
Post Activity
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2004 44 99 78
2005 222 142 179 254 116 305 398 664 579 547 457 367
2006 373 950 1654 631 1923 1868 1855 2041 2166 1470 1715
1793
2007 2159 1953 2137 1871 1878 1482 1707 1497 257
I guess he had to work as a fresher fluffer in Sept so he is behind
the 'Mark', literally....
http://www.digg.com/users/schestowitz/news/dugg/page20
Like I said, sick.
Quietness is power.
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-14 06:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
Another poster posts a couple of messages with topics like 'Linux is
free, Windows is not' and 'People would rather pay for Windows than
get Linux for free' and instantly they get hundreds of replies while
the so called Linux advocates messages get 3 at best replies and those
three are the same three people talking to each other.
Don't believe it?
Go look for yourself.
Linux advocacy is deader than yesterday's news about Brittany Spears.
She bombed at the MTV awards in case you have not heard.
BTW here is that posters google stats, which are sicko if you ask me,
Post Activity
Year Total
2004 221
2005 4,230
2006 18,439
2007 14,941
I guess he had to work as a fresher fluffer in Sept so he is behind
the 'Mark', literally....
http://www.digg.com/users/schestowitz/news/dugg/page20
Like I said, sick.
Interesting, there is nothing else to attack, seeing Linux has already
won. Now he/she/it attacks the messenger, quite odd.

Get over it, Linux advocacy is alive and well.

--
HPT
DFS
2007-09-14 13:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
Post Activity [of Roy Schestowitz]
Year Total
2006 18,439
2007 14,941
Gawd! For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year. And not a single
cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Post by High Plains Thumper
I guess he had to work as a fresher fluffer in Sept so he is behind
the 'Mark', literally....
http://www.digg.com/users/schestowitz/news/dugg/page20
Like I said, sick.
It is. In his defense, less than 100% of his spam contained lies about
Windows.
Post by High Plains Thumper
Interesting, there is nothing else to attack, seeing Linux has already
won.
Several other cola wacks have made this absurd claim. And then they slink
away when asked "What did Linux win?"
Post by High Plains Thumper
Get over it, Linux advocacy is alive and well.
Such as it is: flyer, 7, Rex Ballard, HPT, Roy [H]omer Kent, et al


And before I forget: Unix engineering workstation quality
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-15 00:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by High Plains Thumper
Post Activity [of Roy Schestowitz]
Year Total
2006 18,439
2007 14,941
Gawd! For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year. And
not a single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Wah lau, eh! You don like his posts? Most are news post
excerpts that have been especially delineated with "[NEWS]", so
one can conveniently filter out. Still trying to figure out
filtering in Outlook Express, meh?
Post by DFS
Post by High Plains Thumper
I guess he had to work as a fresher fluffer in Sept so he
is behind the 'Mark', literally....
http://www.digg.com/users/schestowitz/news/dugg/page20
Like I said, sick.
It is. In his defense, less than 100% of his spam contained
lies about Windows.
According to YOU, anything that is pro Linux is Windows spam.
Anything that is negative about Windows or the Microsoft
corporation but true is spam.
Post by DFS
Post by High Plains Thumper
Interesting, there is nothing else to attack, seeing Linux
has already won.
Several other cola wacks have made this absurd claim. And
then they slink away when asked "What did Linux win?"
If you took off your blinders, you'd see.
Post by DFS
Post by High Plains Thumper
Get over it, Linux advocacy is alive and well.
Such as it is: flyer, 7, Rex Ballard, HPT, Roy [H]omer Kent,
et al
And before I forget: Unix engineering workstation quality
Those who had the chance to work on an engineering workstation
level product in the mid 80's and on know exactly what I mean.
Those systems were not cheap, around $25K, when a base-line name
brand Windows 80268 AT clone system were a couple thou US. Unix
GUI made Windows 3.x look extremely amateurish.

Graphics were fantastic, but at the price one would expect that.
My first experiences nearly a decade ago with Linux were with
RedHat 6.0 and Gnome. I was amazed at the high quality user
interface appearance, icons, graphics, multiple desktops, etc.
That experience was a throwback to my experiences on engineering
workstations.

Then I experienced KDE 1.0 on SuSE 5.3 and Corel Linux 1.0.
Compared with Windows 95 and OSR2, 98, NT 4.0, etc. at the time,
the Gnome and KDE interfaces even then were vastly superior.
Icons were more polished, I could adjust the size, video action
was more fluid on my 450 MHz AMD K6-2 Ampro 9900 at home and my
Intel Pentium II systems at work than the Windows environment.

To boot, because the workstations were expensive, we had DEC
VT100's connected in serially. One could work in shell mode for
stuff that did not require graphics. Desktop office automation
software supported text terminals in addition to graphical, so
one could type their reports, spreadsheet, data base stuff, etc.

But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
--
HPT
Linonut
2007-09-15 13:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
--
Tux rox!
Hadron
2007-09-15 16:00:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
Yes it is. It is a derivative. There is no single "BASIC".
--
Me vê se a panela da moça é de aço, Madalena Paes, e vem.
-- palíndromo
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-16 11:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
I was being facetious, din't you notice the smiley?
--
HPT
Linonut
2007-09-16 14:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
I was being facetious, din't you notice the smiley?
Yeah, but I needed a Google-able nugget.
--
Tux rox!
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-17 14:07:48 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
<***@be11south.net>
wrote
on Sun, 16 Sep 2007 14:24:50 GMT
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work in text
mode. If you can't see it graphically, you are hopelessly lost.
You haven't graduated yet from BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
I was being facetious, din't you notice the smiley?
Yeah, but I needed a Google-able nugget.
Just as a bit of personal historical perspective:

[1] HP Basic. I'm not sure if this is it's official
name, but basically it was a paper punched tape that
could be loaded into HP 21xx computer systems (we had
three: a 2114B, a 211B, and a 21mx, which had brand
new semiconductor RAM -- a novelty way back then)
in the late 1970's. Its main claim to fame was the
extremely limited variable name space; 'A0', 'DIM
A(10)', and 'A$' are examples thereof. The error
diagnoistics were appalling by today's standards;
one had to look up the error codes in a pamphlet.
"ERROR 76 IN LINE 20", for instance, meant that
one needed more DATA statements, if memory serves.
(It's admittedly an improvement over Apple ]['s
"SYNTAX ERROR" diagnostic, though not by much.)

And all of this in 16 kB of RAM. (Actually, 8
kilowords, with each word being 16 bits.) The
HP 21xx series wasn't even stack based, but we'll
go into that another time. :-)

[2] VMS Basic. I don't know the details, but VMS had
everything else: COBOL, Fortran, Pascal, assembly
language, at least *two* C compilers, all able to call
each other.

[3] Apple ][. Integer-based BASIC with some interesting
capabilities buried thereinto.

[4] Apple ///. Floating-point BASIC. This one actually
innovated the notion of deferring syntax check until
the program was run. It also made the 'LET' keyword
optional.

[5] IBM Basic. There were several variants of this, from
a ROM-based BASICA in early PCs to a GW-BASIC.

[6] ABasic. An Amiga-based BASIC variant.

[7] AmigaBasic. A Microsoft-produced Amiga variant.
If I'm not mistaken, this one did the no-no of using
the top 8 bits of the address as an additional storage
space (since the MC68000 only supported 24 bits
at most, though used 32 bits for storage). Had the
general feel (in my opinion) of being a ported product,
though it supported Intution (Amiga's answer to Win32)
well enough.

[8] Visual Basic. Microsoft's more or less de-facto
standard BASIC. Includes object-oriented concepts
such as arbitrary method calls, and does not require
line numbers.

[9] Chipmunk Basic. I'm not sure what happened to this but
presumably it's still floating around.

[10] Gambas. An IDE (blue lobster) with a BASIC
interpreter. If one can stand slightly cutesy lobsters
(yes, one can turn it off), this one looks like it
can do the job reasonably well.

[11] There are hints of a BASIC# (or mono-basic, as Gentoo
calls it) in the Gentoo /usr/portage tree, under
dev-lang.

[12] The portage tree also includes something
called "REALBasic". This is apparently trialware,
with a license key granted by the corporation.

I don't know offhand if BASIC's been standardized (though
there's probably an ISO paper floating around), but one
wonders how many other BASICs there are.

A quick Google coughed up

ANSI Standard for Minimal BASIC (X3.60-1978)
ANSI Standard for Full BASIC (X3.113-1987)
ISO Standard for Minimal BASIC (ISO 6373:1984 Data processing -
Programming languages - Minimal BASIC)
ISO Standard for Full BASIC (ISO/IEC 10279:1991 Information technology -
Programming languages - Full BASIC)

(this from http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~bergmann/history.html,
which is a very abbreviated history of the language).

A Google on the last ISO standard above coughed up

http://www.ncits.org/5yr_iso/ISO_IEC_10279-1991.pdf

which is apparently a photoscanned copy of the document.
There's not a lot there: 20 pages, 3 of which are
intentionally blank, and 2 of which are title and
trailer.

How well VB hews to this standard, I for one can't say.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net -- insert random BASIC here
Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
to fix your Windows problems?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Linonut
2007-09-18 11:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
How well VB hews to this standard, I for one can't say.
Who cares? We have Perl (though I don't really like it much). Even
better -- Python. I'm just getting into that language, and it looks
pretty cool.

Wny monkey around with Billy Basic, or even OO Basic? <grin>
--
Tux rox!
chrisv
2007-09-18 15:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
How well VB hews to this standard, I for one can't say.
Who cares? We have Perl (though I don't really like it much). Even
better -- Python. I'm just getting into that language, and it looks
pretty cool.
Wny monkey around with Billy Basic, or even OO Basic? <grin>
One version not on Ghost's list is M$ QuickBasic, from the late 80's,
which is my favorite M$ program ever. It was so cool to be able to
quickly and easily pound-out stand-alone .exe's for the PC, and it has
everything you need to make reasonably structured programs. I
occasionally still use it at work, believe it or not...
Linonut
2007-09-18 16:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by chrisv
Post by Linonut
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
How well VB hews to this standard, I for one can't say.
Who cares? We have Perl (though I don't really like it much). Even
better -- Python. I'm just getting into that language, and it looks
pretty cool.
Wny monkey around with Billy Basic, or even OO Basic? <grin>
One version not on Ghost's list is M$ QuickBasic, from the late 80's,
which is my favorite M$ program ever. It was so cool to be able to
quickly and easily pound-out stand-alone .exe's for the PC, and it has
everything you need to make reasonably structured programs. I
occasionally still use it at work, believe it or not...
But it is still... BASIC. <grin>
--
Tux rox!
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-18 18:17:53 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
<***@be11south.net>
wrote
on Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:39:56 GMT
Post by Linonut
Post by chrisv
Post by Linonut
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
How well VB hews to this standard, I for one can't say.
Who cares? We have Perl (though I don't really like it much). Even
better -- Python. I'm just getting into that language, and it looks
pretty cool.
Wny monkey around with Billy Basic, or even OO Basic? <grin>
One version not on Ghost's list is M$ QuickBasic, from the late 80's,
which is my favorite M$ program ever. It was so cool to be able to
quickly and easily pound-out stand-alone .exe's for the PC, and it has
everything you need to make reasonably structured programs. I
occasionally still use it at work, believe it or not...
Hmm...can't say I've heard of it. :-) Not too surprising.
Post by Linonut
But it is still... BASIC. <grin>
I'll have to reread the ISO spec to see what makes
Basic basic...but they're beginning to all look the
same to me. :-)

Of course, the differences between the Basic
or Fortran statement

A = B.C(D)

the (presumably) Object Pascal statement [*]

a := b.c(d)

the Java or Python statement

a = b.c(d);

the Ruby statement

$a = $b.c($d); (or @a = @b.c(@d); }

and the Perl statement

$a = $b->c($d);

are mostly syntactical, but e.g. Perl has quite a bit of
pattern matching that Basic doesn't.

The only odd man out in this sequence might be Smalltalk,
which can use

a := b c funcarg: d

if c is declared as

c: funcarg
...

in addition to the more conventional

a := b.c(d)

See any major differences? :-) I don't.

[*] Structure field accessors use '.', so this is a reasonable
extension.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
fortune: not found
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-18 14:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
Post by Linonut
Post by High Plains Thumper
But then I forgot, Winvocates don't know how to work
in text mode. If you can't see it graphically, you
are hopelessly lost. You haven't graduated yet from
BASIC (visual, that is). :-)
Hint: Visual Basic isn't BASIC.
I was being facetious, din't you notice the smiley?
Yeah, but I needed a Google-able nugget.
[1] HP Basic. I'm not sure if this is it's official name, but
basically it was a paper punched tape that could be loaded
into HP 21xx computer systems (we had three: a 2114B, a 211B,
and a 21mx, which had brand new semiconductor RAM -- a novelty
way back then) in the late 1970's. Its main claim to fame was
the extremely limited variable name space; 'A0', 'DIM A(10)',
and 'A$' are examples thereof. The error diagnoistics were
appalling by today's standards; one had to look up the error
codes in a pamphlet. "ERROR 76 IN LINE 20", for instance,
meant that one needed more DATA statements, if memory serves.
(It's admittedly an improvement over Apple ]['s "SYNTAX ERROR"
diagnostic, though not by much.)
And all of this in 16 kB of RAM. (Actually, 8 kilowords, with
each word being 16 bits.) The HP 21xx series wasn't even
stack based, but we'll go into that another time. :-)
I remember using HP BASIC on an HP-85 microcomputer. It was for
my directed research project, computer interfacing with
laboratory instrumentation back in 1981. I used it to do Fourier
Series analysis of model rocket thrust data obtained through a
Keithley high speed voltmeter interfaced to the HP-85 via the
GPIB bus. (HP called it the HPIB - Hewlett-Packard
Instrumentation Bus.)

I believe the HP-85 was 8-bit with 8 kB RAM. It used mini data
cassette cartridge for data and software storage.
[2] VMS Basic. I don't know the details, but VMS had
everything else: COBOL, Fortran, Pascal, assembly language, at
least *two* C compilers, all able to call each other.
[3] Apple ][. Integer-based BASIC with some interesting
capabilities buried thereinto.
[4] Apple ///. Floating-point BASIC. This one actually
innovated the notion of deferring syntax check until the
program was run. It also made the 'LET' keyword optional.
[5] IBM Basic. There were several variants of this, from a
ROM-based BASICA in early PCs to a GW-BASIC.
Tektronix had their own BASIC language on their storage tube
technology computers (4020, 4054). Those generated true vector
graphics. We used them on wind tunnel tests. For smaller tests
like the DC-9 "boat-tail" study we did, the smaller 4020 did the
data acquisition and the 19" display 4054 did the graphics
plotting. For larger tests, we'd either use Rockwell
Rocketdyne's computer system with 4054 or Perkin-Elmer 3220/3230
minicomputer, with 4054.

I've used GW-BASIC and BASIC-A. Similar to CP/M-80 BASIC except
one could also do graphics. I liked BASIC, because one could do
quick and dirty stuff like pre-process ASCII data, grunt work stuff.

Out of curiosity, I installed bwBASIC and yaBASIC in Ubuntu.
bwBASIC reminds me of Perkin-Elmer BASIC.

I remember one supervisor, who wanted to autorun BASIC programs
but did not know how. I figured it out for him. I created a
Perkin-Elmer CSS, left a blank line after the PE-BASIC interpeter
load line. It would of all things write to line 2 of the file
(software string announcement). Then after that, adding a few
lines to load the basic program and execute.

That was back in the days when they allowed one to play games
during lunch and after work. Management thought it was healthy,
got people acquainted with using the computer.

Then all that ceased with a change in corporate management.
Morale changed significantly (for the worse). No wonder why
McDonnell Douglas became uncompetitive. Ask any Boeing person. :-)
--
HPT
[H]omer
2007-09-15 21:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post Activity [of Roy Schestowitz]
Year Total
2006 18,439
2007 14,941
Gawd! For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year. And
not a single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Wah lau, eh! You don't like his posts?
Apparently not, which means they are obviously having the desired
effect. Well done Roy.

As for "sick obsession" ... let's see:

On the one side we have Roy, who is dedicated to GNU/Linux, and dislikes
the competition (primarily Microsoft), and thus posts advocacy posts
which promote GNU/Linux and demote Microsoft. Sounds fair enough.

On the other side we have DooFy, a money-obsessed goon who creates
database "apps" using point 'n click toys and crayons, and devotes the
rest of his day to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to something he
despises (Linux), because its proponents fail to live up to his
expectations of exploitation and greed.

Which of the above two posters really has the "sick obsession"?

Hmm.
--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| "OOXML is a superb standard"
| - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
22:06:36 up 37 days, 21:01, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.20, 0.17
William Poaster
2007-09-15 23:48:21 UTC
Permalink
It was on, or about, Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:08:21 +0100, that as I was
Post by [H]omer
Post by DFS
Post Activity [of Roy Schestowitz]
Year Total
2006 18,439
2007 14,941
Gawd! For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year. And not a
single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Wah lau, eh! You don't like his posts?
Apparently not, which means they are obviously having the desired
effect. Well done Roy.
On the one side we have Roy, who is dedicated to GNU/Linux, and dislikes
the competition (primarily Microsoft), and thus posts advocacy posts
which promote GNU/Linux and demote Microsoft. Sounds fair enough.
On the other side we have DooFy, a money-obsessed goon who creates
database "apps" using point 'n click toys and crayons, and devotes the
rest of his day to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to something he
despises (Linux), because its proponents fail to live up to his
expectations of exploitation and greed.
Which of the above two posters really has the "sick obsession"?
Hmm.
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
--
Surely you are not comparing the non-existent Linux (at that time) with
(Windows)98? - Hadron aka Hadron Quark, Hans Schneider, & Damian O'Leary
comp.os.linux.advocacy - Thu, 16 Aug 2007
Message-ID: <***@homelinux.net>
[H]omer
2007-09-16 00:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!

That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to get
the free crayons on the cover.
--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| "OOXML is a superb standard"
| - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
01:37:54 up 38 days, 32 min, 3 users, load average: 1.36, 1.62, 2.03
Hadron
2007-09-16 11:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to get
the free crayons on the cover.
It does make me chuckle when you cretins start a group "LOL". At you of
course. Not with you.
--
Cuando siento una necesidad de religión, salgo de noche para pintar las
estrellas.
-- Vincent Van Gogh. (1853-1890) Pintor impresionista holandés.
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-16 12:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hadron
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to get
the free crayons on the cover.
It does make me chuckle when you cretins start a group "LOL". At you of
course. Not with you.
Another fine "true linux advocacy post" from the "true linux
advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile expert", "X
specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server admin", "newsreader magician"
and "hardware maven" Hadron Quark, aka Hans Schneider, aka Damian O'Leary
--
Support your local Search and Rescue unit -- get lost.
William Poaster
2007-09-16 13:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to get
the free crayons on the cover.
I kid you not! He buys LinuxFormat (which costs about $16 in the US) just
to feed his hate obsession.
After a couple of weeks of him first joining the group, I commented that
he was either VERY stupid, OR he was being paid by M$ to *deliberately*
rubbish linux even if he *did* look stupid at times. Some of the posters in
here poo-pood the idea, but why else would someone devote their time here
to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to something they despise?

IMHO they're either sick, or they're being paid.
--
Operating systems:
FreeBSD 6.2, Debian 4.0
PCLinuxOS 2007, (K)Ubuntu 7.04
Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" alpha - Tribe 5
Kier
2007-09-16 14:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Poaster
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to get
the free crayons on the cover.
I kid you not! He buys LinuxFormat (which costs about $16 in the US) just
to feed his hate obsession.
After a couple of weeks of him first joining the group, I commented that
he was either VERY stupid, OR he was being paid by M$ to *deliberately*
rubbish linux even if he *did* look stupid at times. Some of the posters in
here poo-pood the idea, but why else would someone devote their time here
to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to something they despise?
IMHO they're either sick, or they're being paid.
And for what reason do trolls in other groups do their trolling? Are they
being paid, too?
--
Kier
DFS
2007-09-16 19:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kier
Post by William Poaster
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to
get the free crayons on the cover.
What is it you do for a living, Dumb Willie? What software do you use at
work? Do you have any software skills at all?

If you think RAD means crayons, etc, why don't you show me how well you can
build a user interface (whatever tool you want, as long as you do the work
yourself) around this db structure:


CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
);

ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID );

CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT ON TL_CNTCT
( LAST_NM, FIRST_NM, ADDR1 );

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
(
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL ,
);

ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_PH PRIMARY KEY
( PH_ID );

CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CNTCT_PH ON TL_CNTCT_PHONE
( CNTCT_ID, PH_TYP );

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
);

ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_TITLE PRIMARY KEY
( TITLE );

CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_TITLE_LDSC ON TL_CNTCT_TITLE
( TITLE_LDSC );
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
CHAIN_CODE VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL
);

ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_CH PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, CHAIN_CODE );

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL
);

ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ST PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, STATECD );
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away as fast as
possible. So
did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial. And Jabba Bailo.
Post by Kier
Post by William Poaster
I kid you not! He buys LinuxFormat (which costs about $16 in the
US) just to feed his hate obsession.
I don't hate Linux. It's an inferior platform for personal computing is
all. Oh, and most OSS apps suck, and the gaming is a joke, and most
self-proclaimed pious cola Linux "advocates" are a hypocritical waste of
lying flesh. But it's a geek dream system, offering total control and
endless tinkering.

But I've always tried out alternative operating systems, since way back in
1989. I subscribed to LXF for a year at $106, but now they want $190 and
I'm not buying. I've spent about as much on Linux/OSS/distros/books/mags in
the past 3 years as I have on MS stuff.

Anyway, MS is too big and I'm weary of seeing MS all over my screens all the
time, and I've gotten sick of spending money with them and getting mediocre
or no response from support personnel or from other contacts I make. I
vowed in early 2004 to buy as little MS software as I can: no XBox/360, no
Halo1/2/3, certainly no OneCare or whatever that is, upgrades to Office or
Windows as infrequently as possible, etc.
Post by Kier
And for what reason do trolls in other groups do their trolling? Are
they being paid, too?
I'm not a troll.
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-17 15:08:22 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, DFS
<***@dfs_.com>
wrote
on Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:41:13 -0400
Post by DFS
Post by [H]omer
Post by William Poaster
Doofy even buys a magazine about an OS he hates, how idiotic is *that*?
LOL!
That'd be like me buying a copy of "RAD Developer Monthly" just to
get the free crayons on the cover.
What is it you do for a living, Dumb Willie? What software do you use at
work? Do you have any software skills at all?
If you think RAD means crayons, etc, why don't you show me how well you can
build a user interface (whatever tool you want, as long as you do the work
ObYuck: Yuck. Can't your database handle 'CONTACT' like
normal DB systems? :-P Then again...I'd have to look;
it might be a keyword.
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
Not unreasonable thus far. However, restricting it to
8 digits looks a bit arbitrary. 2^31 = 2147483648 --
10 digits. The identifier probably should be expanded to
'CONTACT_ID' in a perfect world.
Post by DFS
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
I don't like enumerated types represented as varchars.
(In our database, we have a mix. Some of our
enumerated/quasi-enumerateds are represented as numbers,
with a lookup table for convenience. Others are multichar
codes much like CNTCT_TYP. Not a lot I can do about it;
we convert them when we can.)
Post by DFS
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
A quasi-enumerated type. This probably should be a
foreign key. Is there a TL_DEPT table? There are also
scoping issues -- where's the company for this department?
Post by DFS
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Interesting notion. Are we supposed to assume 'The Duke Of
Wellington' fits in here? Or is this restricted to 'Mr',
'Mrs', 'Miss', 'Mz'?
Post by DFS
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard surname stuff.
Post by DFS
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard firstname stuff. No middle initial?
Post by DFS
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is more generic than 'NUMBER/STREET/UNIT', but
am wondering if 35 is enough. Then again...
Post by DFS
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
Compromise, thy name is address field. Also, is the NULL a
typo, or an indication that this field may in fact be null?
I'm hoping the latter.
Post by DFS
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Another quasi-enumerated type, though so large there's
probably no point in representing it as such.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
Extremely restrictive. Also, no provision for
international provinces.
Post by DFS
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
Ditto.
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID );
OK.
Post by DFS
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT ON TL_CNTCT
( LAST_NM, FIRST_NM, ADDR1 );
OK, I suppose. I'd key on ADDR2 but with a NULLable field
in an index things get a little interesting. This doesn't
look very reliable.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
Ah, phone numbers.
Post by DFS
(
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
A little odd. Of course there is the possbility that two
or more contacts could share one phone number (if they
happen to share a cubicle booth or do not have direct
lines and thus have to all go though the company's main
switchboard), so that's probably OK.
Post by DFS
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Inconsistent foreign key; should be NUMBER(8,0).
Post by DFS
PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
Another enumerated type.
Post by DFS
PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is tolerable, and does allow for
extensions and international dialing codes if necessary.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_PH PRIMARY KEY
( PH_ID );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CNTCT_PH ON TL_CNTCT_PHONE
( CNTCT_ID, PH_TYP );
No index on PH_TYP and PH_NBR? With Caller-ID, one might
want that.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
This is ridiculous. The long description should not be
the same size as the short description.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_TITLE PRIMARY KEY
( TITLE );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_TITLE_LDSC ON TL_CNTCT_TITLE
( TITLE_LDSC );
OK, though I'm not thrilled.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
Not sure what this one's for.
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
Post by DFS
CHAIN_CODE VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL
Not sure what this is, but this is probably a
quasi-enumerated type again.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_CH PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, CHAIN_CODE );
This table is all index, then. Good for storage.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
This one needs to be extended to include country; state
should be changed to province, or left as is.
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL
This looks like a typo. Did you mean VARCHAR(2)?
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ST PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, STATECD );
Another all index table.

* * *

There is a 'TEXT' type that PostgreSQL supports -- not sure
how standard it is. Such might be useful for TITLE_LDSC.

As already noted, this screams for internationalization.
This is arguably most easily done by simply making the
zipcode bigger (at least it's alphanumeric, which helps)
and including a country three-letter code. (Most countries
are two-letter but there's a few oddballs in there.)
25-digit phone numbers look OK, though there's arguably
a lot of quirks out there, depending on how well the
local exchanges work once one has gotten through the
international stuff.

As an example, the UK Prime Minister's address is

10 Downing Street,
London,
SW1A 2AA
United Kingdom

The phone number for his fax is +0442079250918, if I'm
not mistaken; the +044 is an international prefix. In UK,
one reaches his FAX by dialing 02079250918.

(This is all from http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page3.asp
so don't worry too much about my spreading personal info
here. :-) I don't know Mr. Brown personally, certainly!)

The Canadian prime minster (Stepher Harper) has similar
quirks (stands to reason, actually):

Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington Street
Ottawa
K1A 0A2
Canada

with 6139416900 or +0116139416900 as his fax number.

(http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/contact.asp?featureId=10)

A list of international dialing codes is at

http://www.kropla.com/dialcode.htm

International domain names are going through a transition phase
right now, as ICANN releases sections of its authority to regional or
country systems. I frankly don't know what's going to happen, but
for now

http://www.iana.org/root-whois/index.html

is probably as good a reference as any for such, from
Ascension Island (.ac) to Zimbabwe (.zw).
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away
as fast as possible. So
did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial. And Jabba Bailo.
Not sure this is trivial, but it's definitely easy to
spot some of the problems. I'm not sure if I can do a
third normal form analysis on this, and am not all that
experienced therein (though I do know the basics).

I will give you brownie points for not using anything
overtly SQL Server-based. ;-)

First Normal Form: Don't use arrays. If one needs
multiple instances of an attribute with reference to
another, put the second attribute in its own relation. [*]
If two attributes have a many-many relationship, create
a third relation to represent that relationship, with an
appropriate key containing both attributes.

Second Normal Form: Put the data in the right place; if
an attribute only requires part of a key, put it in with the
relation that has that key part (or even create a new one),
not with a relation that has the full key. For example,
putting an employee's address within an employee-department
inclusion relation may cause that address to be lost if
the employee switches departments.

Third Normal Form: This one's a bit hard to characterize, and
relates to non-transitive dependence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Normal_forms

more fully explains these issues; the entire article also contains
some examples of edit problems when tables are not in second
normal form.

[rest snipped]

[*] admittedly, slavishly following this rule might cause
unnecessary tables, in certain contexts. For example,
a polygon properly requires two tables (where I've
not included the key declarations for brevity):

CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...);
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);

or even three:

CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...)
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0));
CREATE TABLE G_POINT(POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);

whereas a single table might be sufficient in
PostgreSQL, if one doesn't have to do anything too
complicated like compute the convex hull of a set
of polygons' point:

CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), POINTS POINT[], ...);

I don't know how standard 'POINT[]' is, though.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
New Technology? Not There. No Thanks.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Kelsey Bjarnason
2007-09-19 16:30:16 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
How about simply email addresses? Note that an email address's length is
in fact constrained - to 320 characters:

A local part (user) of up to 64 chars
A host part of up to 255 characters
An @

His field isn't even long enough for the local part.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
This is ridiculous. The long description should not be the same size as
the short description.
Does seem a tad odd.
Tim Smith
2007-09-19 20:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
How about simply email addresses? Note that an email address's length is
A local part (user) of up to 64 chars
A host part of up to 255 characters
His field isn't even long enough for the local part.
You are assuming that the email address isn't further constrained
outside the database. Note that his other fields included a department
and title, but not a company, which indicates this may have been for an
internal contact list, and so the email address may not include the @
and host, and may be subject to internal conventions that limit the
local part.
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-19 17:26:13 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason
<***@gmail.com>
wrote
on Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:30:16 -0700
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
How about simply email addresses? Note that an email address's length is
A local part (user) of up to 64 chars
A host part of up to 255 characters
His field isn't even long enough for the local part.
One might have to generalize the concept, from phones and
beepers to IM handles.
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
This is ridiculous. The long description should not be the same size as
the short description.
Does seem a tad odd.
Aye. PostgreSQL offers the "TEXT" type -- dunno how
standard that is, but it is of indefinite length.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
to fix your Windows problems?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
DFS
2007-09-20 04:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, DFS
ObYuck: Yuck. Can't your database handle 'CONTACT' like
normal DB systems? :-P Then again...I'd have to look;
it might be a keyword.
Not a keyword. I was adhering to the client's column naming conventions,
which often remove vowels. I got griped at in the past for not doing so,
and these tables are part of a very important db that will
[probably]/[eventually] be moved to Oracle. So I sucked it up and did it
their way :)
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
Not unreasonable thus far. However, restricting it to
8 digits looks a bit arbitrary. 2^31 = 2147483648 --
10 digits.
8 digits will let me assign 99,999,999 contacts. I don't have that many
friends - do you :)
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
The identifier probably should be expanded to
'CONTACT_ID' in a perfect world.
Probably so. As I developed code, I often typed CONTACT_ID without
thinking.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
I don't like enumerated types represented as varchars.
(In our database, we have a mix. Some of our
enumerated/quasi-enumerateds are represented as numbers,
with a lookup table for convenience. Others are multichar
codes much like CNTCT_TYP. Not a lot I can do about it;
we convert them when we can.)
That column has 2 values restricted by a check constraint (not shown).
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
A quasi-enumerated type. This probably should be a
foreign key. Is there a TL_DEPT table?
There is. Didn't show it.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
There are also scoping issues -- where's
the company for this department?
Internal system - not for sale.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Interesting notion. Are we supposed to assume 'The Duke Of
Wellington' fits in here? Or is this restricted to 'Mr',
'Mrs', 'Miss', 'Mz'?
Revenue Manager, Field Consultant, etc.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard surname stuff.
Post by DFS
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard firstname stuff. No middle initial?
Post by DFS
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is more generic than 'NUMBER/STREET/UNIT', but
am wondering if 35 is enough. Then again...
Some of these columns are derivative/downstream of other systems in place at
this client. They use 35 for address lines.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
Compromise, thy name is address field. Also, is the NULL a
typo, or an indication that this field may in fact be null?
I'm hoping the latter.
ADDR2 is NULLABLE.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Another quasi-enumerated type, though so large there's
probably no point in representing it as such.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
Extremely restrictive. Also, no provision for
international provinces.
System is USA only - at least for now.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
Ditto.
Ditto.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
Separate table.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID );
OK.
Post by DFS
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT ON TL_CNTCT
( LAST_NM, FIRST_NM, ADDR1 );
OK, I suppose. I'd key on ADDR2 but with a NULLable field
in an index things get a little interesting. This doesn't
look very reliable.
How so? You'd be surprised at how many Ghost Machines there are, but they
all have a different address.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
Ah, phone numbers.
Post by DFS
(
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
A little odd. Of course there is the possbility that two
or more contacts could share one phone number (if they
happen to share a cubicle booth or do not have direct
lines and thus have to all go though the company's main
switchboard), so that's probably OK.
This PH_ID was created for one purpose - I let the user (see below) choose
which contact phone number they want to display onscreen. It's a small but
very sweet feature, and is one of the many reasons I make the big bucks.

CREATE TABLE TT_CNTCT_USR_PH
(
USR_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
DSPLY VARCHAR(1) NOT NULL
);

ALTER TABLE TT_CNTCT_USR_PH
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TT_CNTCT_USR_PH PRIMARY KEY
( USR_ID, PH_ID, DSPLY );
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Inconsistent foreign key; should be NUMBER(8,0).
I tweaked it manually a bit before posting it, and missed some things.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
Another enumerated type.
Post by DFS
PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is tolerable, and does allow for
extensions and international dialing codes if necessary.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_PH PRIMARY KEY
( PH_ID );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CNTCT_PH ON TL_CNTCT_PHONE
( CNTCT_ID, PH_TYP );
No index on PH_TYP and PH_NBR? With Caller-ID, one might
want that.
PH_TYP maybe.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
This is ridiculous. The long description should not be
the same size as the short description.
Post by DFS
);
I screwed up here. The longest of the 70 titles in the table is 22
characters, and the longest description is 41 characters.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_TITLE PRIMARY KEY
( TITLE );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_TITLE_LDSC ON TL_CNTCT_TITLE
( TITLE_LDSC );
OK, though I'm not thrilled.
Just keeping the data clean, which has made life much easier.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
Not sure what this one's for.
Assign the contacts to the restaurant chains.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
You mean the data size? The tables are actually in Access right now, and
the VB code I wrote to generate the Oracle DDL defaults to 5,0.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CHAIN_CODE VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL
Not sure what this is, but this is probably a
quasi-enumerated type again.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_CH PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, CHAIN_CODE );
This table is all index, then. Good for storage.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
This one needs to be extended to include country; state
should be changed to province, or left as is.
No. It's similar to TL_CNTCT_CHAIN.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL
This looks like a typo. Did you mean VARCHAR(2)?
Another screwup.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ST PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, STATECD );
Another all index table.
* * *
There is a 'TEXT' type that PostgreSQL supports -- not sure
how standard it is. Such might be useful for TITLE_LDSC.
As already noted, this screams for internationalization.
This structure may be built upon or updated for non-American facilities, but
for now it's US only.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away
as fast as possible. So did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial.
And Jabba Bailo.
Not sure this is trivial, but it's definitely easy to
spot some of the problems.
The "problems" you spotted are mostly trivialities related to column sizing,
or matters of opinion/debate. This one is pretty much clean, and therefore
so is the data - one way to tell is when I write queries I never have to do
OUTER JOINs, and even complex queries run very fast, and the overall db size
is small.

I've created much worse designs, believe me - and they cost a lot in the
end.

Also, I posted only 5 tables related to Contacts; the entire structure is 80
tables.

Anyway, the actual assignment here was for Dumb Willie to take this database
and build an interface around it using the software tool of his choice. Of
course he ran away.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I'm not sure if I can do a
third normal form analysis on this, and am not all that
experienced therein (though I do know the basics).
I will give you brownie points for not using anything
overtly SQL Server-based. ;-)
I fought to get this data system deployed in Oracle, but they weren't
buying, and it's been in Access for nearly 2 years running just fine. No
data loss - yet. I warn them every few months, but it's going to take a
catastrophic loss to make them understand.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
First Normal Form: Don't use arrays. If one needs
multiple instances of an attribute with reference to
another, put the second attribute in its own relation. [*]
If two attributes have a many-many relationship, create
a third relation to represent that relationship, with an
appropriate key containing both attributes.
Second Normal Form: Put the data in the right place; if
an attribute only requires part of a key, put it in with the
relation that has that key part (or even create a new one),
not with a relation that has the full key. For example,
putting an employee's address within an employee-department
inclusion relation may cause that address to be lost if
the employee switches departments.
Third Normal Form: This one's a bit hard to characterize, and
relates to non-transitive dependence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Normal_forms
more fully explains these issues; the entire article also contains
some examples of edit problems when tables are not in second
normal form.
1. Eliminate repeating groups
2. Eliminate redundant data
3. Eliminate columns not dependent on key
4. Isolate independent multiple relationships
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
[*] admittedly, slavishly following this rule might cause
unnecessary tables, in certain contexts. For example,
a polygon properly requires two tables (where I've
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...);
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...)
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0));
CREATE TABLE G_POINT(POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);
whereas a single table might be sufficient in
PostgreSQL, if one doesn't have to do anything too
complicated like compute the convex hull of a set
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), POINTS POINT[], ...);
I don't know how standard 'POINT[]' is, though.
CREATE OR REPLACE VIEW V_POLYGONS AS
SELECT P.POLYGON_ID, P.POLYGON_NM, PT.X, PT.Y
FROM G_POLYGON P, G_POLYGON_POINT PP, G_POINT PT
WHERE P.POLYGON_ID = PP.POLYGON_ID
AND PP.POINT_ID = PT.POINT_ID
/
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-20 14:21:14 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, DFS
<***@dfs_.com>
wrote
on Thu, 20 Sep 2007 00:23:38 -0400
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, DFS
ObYuck: Yuck. Can't your database handle 'CONTACT' like
normal DB systems? :-P Then again...I'd have to look;
it might be a keyword.
Not a keyword. I was adhering to the client's column naming conventions,
which often remove vowels. I got griped at in the past for not doing so,
and these tables are part of a very important db that will
[probably]/[eventually] be moved to Oracle. So I sucked it up and did it
their way :)
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
Not unreasonable thus far. However, restricting it to
8 digits looks a bit arbitrary. 2^31 = 2147483648 --
10 digits.
8 digits will let me assign 99,999,999 contacts. I don't have that many
friends - do you :)
Me, you, no. However, how about a very large enterprise?
In any event, that extra digit costs nothing -- mostly
because the database is presumably using 4 bytes anyway.

In any event, the number of people on this slightly
mildewed marble has already exceeded the capability of a
32-bit integer. Fortunately, most of them are unlikely
to be placed in this database. :-)
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
The identifier probably should be expanded to
'CONTACT_ID' in a perfect world.
Probably so. As I developed code, I often typed CONTACT_ID without
thinking.
So there's a problem already; development time is slowed.
Slightly, to be sure -- but slowed all the same.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
I don't like enumerated types represented as varchars.
(In our database, we have a mix. Some of our
enumerated/quasi-enumerateds are represented as numbers,
with a lookup table for convenience. Others are multichar
codes much like CNTCT_TYP. Not a lot I can do about it;
we convert them when we can.)
That column has 2 values restricted by a check constraint (not shown).
Hmm...better than nothing.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
A quasi-enumerated type. This probably should be a
foreign key. Is there a TL_DEPT table?
There is. Didn't show it.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
There are also scoping issues -- where's
the company for this department?
Internal system - not for sale.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Interesting notion. Are we supposed to assume 'The Duke Of
Wellington' fits in here? Or is this restricted to 'Mr',
'Mrs', 'Miss', 'Mz'?
Revenue Manager, Field Consultant, etc.
Questionable as to whether those are titles or employment.
Perhaps I'm too much of a classicist, but I could want a
better term here.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard surname stuff.
Post by DFS
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
Standard firstname stuff. No middle initial?
Post by DFS
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is more generic than 'NUMBER/STREET/UNIT', but
am wondering if 35 is enough. Then again...
Some of these columns are derivative/downstream of other systems in place at
this client. They use 35 for address lines.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
Compromise, thy name is address field. Also, is the NULL a
typo, or an indication that this field may in fact be null?
I'm hoping the latter.
ADDR2 is NULLABLE.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
Another quasi-enumerated type, though so large there's
probably no point in representing it as such.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
Extremely restrictive. Also, no provision for
international provinces.
System is USA only - at least for now.
OK. But that's a limitation they'll have to upgrade later.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
Ditto.
Ditto.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
No phone numbers? Or is that separate?
Separate table.
Yes, I noticed that later on.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID );
OK.
Post by DFS
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT ON TL_CNTCT
( LAST_NM, FIRST_NM, ADDR1 );
OK, I suppose. I'd key on ADDR2 but with a NULLable field
in an index things get a little interesting. This doesn't
look very reliable.
How so? You'd be surprised at how many Ghost Machines there are, but they
all have a different address.
Aye. But you'd be surprised how often mailing address
managers misspell my street name. :-P And even if they
managed to spell it correctly, there's the question of
various extra spaces therein:

123 Anystreet Lane
123 Anystreet Lane
123Anystreet Lane

etc.

Of course, the flip side is that there's a few rural roads
and such that don't neatly fit into this formatting.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
Ah, phone numbers.
Post by DFS
(
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
A little odd. Of course there is the possbility that two
or more contacts could share one phone number (if they
happen to share a cubicle booth or do not have direct
lines and thus have to all go though the company's main
switchboard), so that's probably OK.
This PH_ID was created for one purpose - I let the user (see below) choose
which contact phone number they want to display onscreen. It's a small but
very sweet feature, and is one of the many reasons I make the big bucks.
CREATE TABLE TT_CNTCT_USR_PH
(
USR_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
DSPLY VARCHAR(1) NOT NULL
);
ALTER TABLE TT_CNTCT_USR_PH
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TT_CNTCT_USR_PH PRIMARY KEY
( USR_ID, PH_ID, DSPLY );
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Inconsistent foreign key; should be NUMBER(8,0).
I tweaked it manually a bit before posting it, and missed some things.
Yep.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
Another enumerated type.
Post by DFS
PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL ,
I suppose this is tolerable, and does allow for
extensions and international dialing codes if necessary.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_PH PRIMARY KEY
( PH_ID );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CNTCT_PH ON TL_CNTCT_PHONE
( CNTCT_ID, PH_TYP );
No index on PH_TYP and PH_NBR? With Caller-ID, one might
want that.
PH_TYP maybe.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
(
TITLE VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL ,
TITLE_LDSC VARCHAR(50) NOT NULL
This is ridiculous. The long description should not be
the same size as the short description.
Post by DFS
);
I screwed up here. The longest of the 70 titles in the table is 22
characters, and the longest description is 41 characters.
OK.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_TITLE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_TITLE PRIMARY KEY
( TITLE );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_TITLE_LDSC ON TL_CNTCT_TITLE
( TITLE_LDSC );
OK, though I'm not thrilled.
Just keeping the data clean, which has made life much easier.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
Not sure what this one's for.
Assign the contacts to the restaurant chains.
Hm.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
You mean the data size?
Yes.
Post by DFS
The tables are actually in Access right now, and
the VB code I wrote to generate the Oracle DDL defaults to 5,0.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
CHAIN_CODE VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL
Not sure what this is, but this is probably a
quasi-enumerated type again.
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_CHAIN
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_CH PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, CHAIN_CODE );
This table is all index, then. Good for storage.
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
This one needs to be extended to include country; state
should be changed to province, or left as is.
No. It's similar to TL_CNTCT_CHAIN.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
Another inconsistent foreign key.
Post by DFS
STATECD VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL
This looks like a typo. Did you mean VARCHAR(2)?
Another screwup.
Ah.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_STATE
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ST PRIMARY KEY
( CNTCT_ID, STATECD );
Another all index table.
* * *
There is a 'TEXT' type that PostgreSQL supports -- not sure
how standard it is. Such might be useful for TITLE_LDSC.
As already noted, this screams for internationalization.
This structure may be built upon or updated for non-American facilities, but
for now it's US only.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by DFS
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away
as fast as possible. So did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial.
And Jabba Bailo.
Not sure this is trivial, but it's definitely easy to
spot some of the problems.
The "problems" you spotted are mostly trivialities related to column sizing,
or matters of opinion/debate. This one is pretty much clean, and therefore
so is the data - one way to tell is when I write queries I never have to do
OUTER JOINs, and even complex queries run very fast, and the overall db size
is small.
I've created much worse designs, believe me - and they cost a lot in the
end.
Also, I posted only 5 tables related to Contacts; the entire structure is 80
tables.
Anyway, the actual assignment here was for Dumb Willie to take this database
and build an interface around it using the software tool of his choice. Of
course he ran away.
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I'm not sure if I can do a
third normal form analysis on this, and am not all that
experienced therein (though I do know the basics).
I will give you brownie points for not using anything
overtly SQL Server-based. ;-)
I fought to get this data system deployed in Oracle, but they weren't
buying, and it's been in Access for nearly 2 years running just fine. No
data loss - yet. I warn them every few months, but it's going to take a
catastrophic loss to make them understand.
There will be no loss in Access as long as they don't tweak it.
You're right; it's not that bad. I can pick out flaws, but
my stuff is just as flawed -- and it's probably better than
some; I've seen some HP flatfile stuff that makes one wonder.
Post by DFS
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
First Normal Form: Don't use arrays. If one needs
multiple instances of an attribute with reference to
another, put the second attribute in its own relation. [*]
If two attributes have a many-many relationship, create
a third relation to represent that relationship, with an
appropriate key containing both attributes.
Second Normal Form: Put the data in the right place; if
an attribute only requires part of a key, put it in with the
relation that has that key part (or even create a new one),
not with a relation that has the full key. For example,
putting an employee's address within an employee-department
inclusion relation may cause that address to be lost if
the employee switches departments.
Third Normal Form: This one's a bit hard to characterize, and
relates to non-transitive dependence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization#Normal_forms
more fully explains these issues; the entire article also contains
some examples of edit problems when tables are not in second
normal form.
1. Eliminate repeating groups
2. Eliminate redundant data
3. Eliminate columns not dependent on key
4. Isolate independent multiple relationships
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
[*] admittedly, slavishly following this rule might cause
unnecessary tables, in certain contexts. For example,
a polygon properly requires two tables (where I've
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...);
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON (POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), ...)
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON_POINT(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0),
ORDER NUMBER(2,0), POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0));
CREATE TABLE G_POINT(POINT_ID NUMBER(8,0), X NUMBER, Y NUMBER);
whereas a single table might be sufficient in
PostgreSQL, if one doesn't have to do anything too
complicated like compute the convex hull of a set
CREATE TABLE G_POLYGON(POLYGON_ID NUMBER(8,0), POINTS POINT[], ...);
I don't know how standard 'POINT[]' is, though.
CREATE OR REPLACE VIEW V_POLYGONS AS
SELECT P.POLYGON_ID, P.POLYGON_NM, PT.X, PT.Y
FROM G_POLYGON P, G_POLYGON_POINT PP, G_POINT PT
WHERE P.POLYGON_ID = PP.POLYGON_ID
AND PP.POINT_ID = PT.POINT_ID
/
I wasn't going to get into views, but they have their uses
as transition elements while parts of a system are going
through an upgrade cycle.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
If your CPU can't stand the heat, get another fan.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Linonut
2007-09-18 11:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
I'm not a troll.
-- DFS

I am not a crook.
-- Richard M. Nixon
--
I did not inhale.
I did not have sex with that.... woman... Miss Lewinksy.
-- William Jefferson Clinton
Hadron
2007-09-18 11:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
I'm not a troll.
-- DFS
I am not a crook.
-- Richard M. Nixon
With every post I make I prove I am neither clever nor a comedian
-- lienonut
William Poaster
2007-09-18 12:03:17 UTC
Permalink
It was on, or about, Tue, 18 Sep 2007 11:28:47 +0000, that as I was
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
I'm not a troll.
-- DFS
I am not a crook.
-- Richard M. Nixon
“Two years from now, spam will be solved,”
-- Bill Gates, January 2004
--
Quack admits to trolling: "Or are you trolling me back here?"
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Message-ID: <***@individual.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 18:15:07
Rex Ballard
2007-09-21 03:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
What is it you do for a living, Dumb Willie?
What software do you use at work?
Do you have any software skills at all?
If you think RAD means crayons, etc,
I thought RAD stood for Rational Application Developer (R). :-D
Post by DFS
why don't you show me how well you can
build a user interface (whatever tool you want, as long as you do the work
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
);
You probably never tried this code on anything other than Windows
Access/SQL Server did you.
In my world, we need to be able to support Oracle, DB2, SQL Server,
and MySQL.

Just for grins, I pumped your code into MySQL. It didn't like it at
all.

ERROR 1064 (42000): You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the
manual that
corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
near 'CREAT
E TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT' at line 2
mysql>

On the othetr hand

mysql> CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
-> (
-> CNTCT_ID DECIMAL(7,0) NOT NULL ,
-> CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
-> DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
-> TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
-> LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
-> FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
-> ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
-> ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
-> CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
-> STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
-> ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
-> EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
-> );
Query OK, 0 rows affected (0.13 sec)

Worked acceptably. You did lose some precision. Earlier versions of
MySQL used strings, but new version uses binary.

mysql>
mysql> CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
-> (
-> PH_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
-> CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
-> PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
-> PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL ,
-> );
ERROR 1064 (42000): You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the
manual that
corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use
near 'NUMBE
R(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(5,0) NOT NULL ,
PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NU' at line 3
mysql>
mysql>

Congratulations - you failed yet another portability test!

You again have demonstrated that you are barely competent to write
DDL, you certainly wouldn't qualify as a DBA.

Had to fix that as well
This worked
mysql>
mysql> CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_PHONE
-> (
-> PH_ID DECIMAL(7,0) NOT NULL ,
-> CNTCT_ID DECIMAL(5,0) NOT NULL ,
-> PH_TYP VARCHAR(10) NOT NULL ,
-> PH_NBR VARCHAR(25) NOT NULL
-> );
Query OK, 0 rows affected (0.33 sec)

mysql> You had a trailing comma. Again, nonportable, and shows that
you never tested it on anything other than Access. Does this even
work on SQL Server?

There were numerous other errors. I'm surprised any database compiled
it, but let's assume that the NUMBER(X,Y) with X greater than 8 was
supported on other databases like Oracle and DB2, you still have
sloppy syntax errors.

I corrected the DDL, took about 15 minutes.

installed the ODBC connector, and then connected to it using
OpenOffice Base.
Setting up the connection took about 5 minutes.

I created a view with the correct foreign key relationships - 5
minutes.

I'm surprised you didn't create a separate code for e-mail, since most
people have more than one.
You didn't really normalize properly (Person and Location should be
two tables), but you may have denormalized for performance.

Title is potentially confusing in this form. It could be salutations
(Mr, Ms, Mrs, Miss, Dr, Fr,...) or positions (President, Director,
Manager, Specialist,...).
Post by DFS
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away as fast as
possible. So
did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial. And Jabba Bailo.
Since you mentioned me by name, I thought I'd give myself an hour.

This is a pretty simple example. Most of my projects involve 20-200
tables with anywhere from 5 to 25 fields per table.
I'd also use RSA to lay out the data classes and then use interaction
diagrams to map out the flow between the classes. RSA would generate
the DAO classes.

Still, it's pretty simple to do this in OO Base. Base is a bit like
ACCESS, but works with about 2 dozen databases.
And the DDL generated by the CASE tool is portable to all of those
databases.

And what exactly did you want to do with the Chain code? Is that
chain of command - like manager?
If so, wouldn't it make more sense to use tuples?
(CNTCT_ID,ChainCode,ContactID), where Chain code is manager, or
customer, or sales, or whatever other relationship exists, between the
pair?
Post by DFS
Post by Kier
Post by William Poaster
I kid you not! He buys LinuxFormat (which costs about $16 in the
US) just to feed his hate obsession.
I don't hate Linux. It's an inferior platform for personal computing is
all. Oh, and most OSS apps suck, and the gaming is a joke, and most
self-proclaimed pious cola Linux "advocates" are a hypocritical waste of
lying flesh. But it's a geek dream system, offering total control and
endless tinkering.
But I've always tried out alternative operating systems, since way back in
1989. I subscribed to LXF for a year at $106, but now they want $190 and
I'm not buying. I've spent about as much on Linux/OSS/distros/books/mags in
the past 3 years as I have on MS stuff.
Anyway, MS is too big and I'm weary of seeing MS all over my screens all the
time, and I've gotten sick of spending money with them and getting mediocre
or no response from support personnel or from other contacts I make. I
vowed in early 2004 to buy as little MS software as I can: no XBox/360, no
Halo1/2/3, certainly no OneCare or whatever that is, upgrades to Office or
Windows as infrequently as possible, etc.
Post by Kier
And for what reason do trolls in other groups do their trolling? Are
they being paid, too?
I'm not a troll.
Rex Ballard
2007-09-21 04:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
I don't hate Linux. It's an inferior platform
Lot's of companies who have been making huge profits by USING Linux
powered servers would probably disagree with you. Still, you have
your opinion, and it's pretty clear that you are very much committed
to Microsoft products and projects. Nothing wrong with that, but your
position is more appropriate to Comp.OS.Windows.Advocacy. I don't
post "Ain't Linux Great" articles in COWA, but it seems that Softees
and WinTrolls can't resist dumbing their turds in our sandbox.
Post by DFS
or personal computing is
Linux and Mac are more similar to each other than either is to
Windows. When end-users have had the chance to make side-by-side
comparisons between UNIX (OS/X) and Windows (XP or Vista), the verdict
seems to be "I'd rather have a Mac" about 70% of the time.
Post by DFS
all. Oh, and most OSS apps suck
Again, you have an opinion, which many very qualified and important
people would disagree with. There are lots of companies using LAMP
(Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP or PERL) to produce extraordinary
profits. It's quick, cheap, and very cost-effective. It's reliable,
secure, stable, and easily managed.
Post by DFS
, and the gaming is a joke, and most
Linux emulates lots of other game machines, and many companies such as
Atari, Electronic Arts, and Activision make virtual machines or
wrapper libraries that let Linux users play their games. For many
people, poor games is a good thing, especially for WORK-stations. If
you really want to play the latest in really neat games, get a WII.
Post by DFS
self-proclaimed pious cola Linux "advocates" are a hypocritical waste of
lying flesh.
Again, you have an opinion, which you generously share on the
Comp.os.LINUX.Advocacy group,
instead of sharing on the comp.os.WINDOWS.Advocacy.group.

This alone makes you a WinTroll.
Post by DFS
But it's a geek dream system, offering total control and
endless tinkering.
That's fair. Geeks love having lots of control over their machine,
security that rivals DOD systems, reliability that rivals the
telephone company, and the ability to access their systems as
workstations or on laptops, or via remote connections.

Of course, managers kind of like that they don't have to pay huge
travel expense budgets to get windows administrators or developers in
front of the physical machines. They like that most administrative
tasks, support and troubleshooting, and configuration work can be done
from 10,000 miles away, by people who have been awake for 2-3 hours,
and will still be fresh for 6-8 hours more, instead of trying to get
someone who has just finished working 15 hours to wake up after 3
hours of sleep to work drive to the office that's 30-60 minutes away,
so they can work on a "crisis" for another 10-12 hours, along with the
other 5-6 specialists who must wait and take turns at the console and
point fingers at each other until the root cause is determined. But
then again, root cause analysis is such a rare scene in Windows server
environments. Usually, it's cheaper and faster to just "re-image" the
hard drive, that it is to actually find out why the system failed and
make sure it never fails again. Having 5 consultants standing around,
waiting for their turn at the console, for 8 hours, at $100/hour,
costs about 4 times as much as a new PC. Add travel costs,
administative time, and managers' markup, and the price can be higher
than 8-10 PCs.

Microsoft HAS been able to benefit from Linux technology though.
Using Linux as the hosting operating system, and Windows 2003 has made
it much easier to replace/recover images.
Post by DFS
But I've always tried out alternative operating systems, since way back in
1989. I subscribed to LXF for a year at $106, but now they want $190 and
I
1989, what alternatives were these, DRI/GEM? DesqView/X? Mac Finder?
How about SunOS?
Did you try Solaris and compare it with Windows 3.1?

Did you try a side-by-side comparison of Solaris or Interactive Unix
or UnixWare and Windows NT 3.1?

How about a comparison between Windows 95 and Linux with FVWM, OLVWM,
or GNOME.

Did you do a direct Side-by-Side between Windows NT 4.0 and Red Hat
Linux 4.2? InfoWorld did and RH won!

How many people made the CHOICE to use Windows instead of Linux after
making a side-by-side comparison between the two? How many people
made the CHOICE to use Linux instead of Windows after making a similar
comparison?

There were some, like you who made the comparison between two properly
configured systems, spent several staff-weeks making some real-world
and real-problem comparisons to see if Linux was practical, and
decided to stick with Windows because they had applications that were
critical, and couldn't be configured to work with Linux.

This group is the minority at the moment. Most of those who use
Linux, even if only as a secondary system, or as a server with a
desktop user interface, have done so after spending hours trying to
figure out how to get it installed properly, spending days getting it
configured to do all of the things they wanted, and then spent a month
or more learning how to use all of the wonderful new Linux
applications. Some of the Linux apps weren't that great, but others
were actually pretty nice.
Roy Schestowitz
2007-09-22 20:08:10 UTC
Permalink
<snip>

Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to trolls. Even
if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and ridiculing you, it will
be best to ignore them. By replying, you're only asking for more (now or in
the future).

Just my opinion anyway...
Kier
2007-09-22 20:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to trolls. Even
if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and ridiculing you, it will
be best to ignore them. By replying, you're only asking for more (now or in
the future).
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
--
Kier
Roy Schestowitz
2007-09-22 22:00:13 UTC
Permalink
____/ Kier on Saturday 22 September 2007 21:21 : \____
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to trolls.
Even if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and ridiculing you,
it will be best to ignore them. By replying, you're only asking for more
(now or in the future).
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | "Far away from home, robots build people"
http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Tasks: 123 total, 1 running, 122 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
Kier
2007-09-22 22:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
____/ Kier on Saturday 22 September 2007 21:21 : \____
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to trolls.
Even if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and ridiculing you,
it will be best to ignore them. By replying, you're only asking for more
(now or in the future).
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy. He spouts
fantasies most of the time. Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
--
Kier
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-22 22:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
____/ Kier on Saturday 22 September 2007 21:21 : \____
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to
trolls. Even if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and
ridiculing you, it will be best to ignore them. By replying, you're
only asking for more (now or in the future).
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy.
Why should he? I don't read any of Rex posts. Far too long and winding, I
gave up after the first 3 or 4 posts, long ago
Post by Kier
He spouts fantasies most of the time.
And that is different from Erik F or Hadron Quark exactly how?
Post by Kier
Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
Not if you can prove him wrong, and you have actually the inclination to
read his stuff

So far all I see is rabid attacks of dishonest swine on Rex. Like Erik F,
for example. And he did not attack the *contents* of Rex posts, he attacked
the messenger. Could it perhaps mean that Erik F found it more easy to dig
up personal info than refute claims?

I do not claim that Rex posts anything but utter balderdash, as I don't read
his stuff. But I can certainly claim that his opponents (all of them) felt
the need to attack him personally, instead of clobbering his "facts"
--
We may not return the affection of those who like us,
but we always respect their good judgement.
Kier
2007-09-22 23:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
____/ Kier on Saturday 22 September 2007 21:21 : \____
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to
trolls. Even if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and
ridiculing you, it will be best to ignore them. By replying, you're
only asking for more (now or in the future).
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy.
Why should he? I don't read any of Rex posts. Far too long and winding, I
gave up after the first 3 or 4 posts, long ago
Post by Kier
He spouts fantasies most of the time.
And that is different from Erik F or Hadron Quark exactly how?
Post by Kier
Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
Not if you can prove him wrong, and you have actually the inclination to
read his stuff
I've read enough to know it's nonsense. It gives me no pleasure to say so,
since Rex seems to be a decent bloke otherwise. Maybe he actually believes
what he posts, I don't know.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
So far all I see is rabid attacks of dishonest swine on Rex. Like Erik F,
for example. And he did not attack the *contents* of Rex posts, he attacked
the messenger. Could it perhaps mean that Erik F found it more easy to dig
up personal info than refute claims?
Both Erik and DFS have proved Rex is talking crap. More than once.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
I do not claim that Rex posts anything but utter balderdash, as I don't read
his stuff. But I can certainly claim that his opponents (all of them) felt
the need to attack him personally, instead of clobbering his "facts"
Which is something I have never agreed with, and have said so.
--
Kier
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-22 23:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Kier wrote:

< snip >
Post by Kier
Post by Peter Köhlmann
So far all I see is rabid attacks of dishonest swine on Rex. Like Erik F,
for example. And he did not attack the *contents* of Rex posts, he
attacked the messenger. Could it perhaps mean that Erik F found it more
easy to dig up personal info than refute claims?
Both Erik and DFS have proved Rex is talking crap.
That Erik /might/ have disproved him I could perhaps accept, as Erik is not
completely stupid yet. I don't, as I think Erik is too dishonest to believe
anything at all from him. I would not accept "2+2=4" from Erik. Actually,
when Erik posts something, I will always believe it to be a lie. It has to
backed up by a credible source before I start believing anything at all
from Erik
Post by Kier
More than once.
That I would not believe at all. And certainly DFS has yet to "prove"
something. He should start with proving that he actually has at least one
working braincell

< snip >
--
Most projects start out slowly -- and then sort of taper off.
-- Norman Augustine
William Poaster
2007-09-22 23:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
< snip >
Post by Kier
Post by Peter Köhlmann
So far all I see is rabid attacks of dishonest swine on Rex. Like Erik
F, for example. And he did not attack the *contents* of Rex posts, he
attacked the messenger. Could it perhaps mean that Erik F found it more
easy to dig up personal info than refute claims?
Both Erik and DFS have proved Rex is talking crap.
That Erik /might/ have disproved him I could perhaps accept, as Erik is
not completely stupid yet. I don't, as I think Erik is too dishonest to
believe anything at all from him. I would not accept "2+2=4" from Erik.
Actually, when Erik posts something, I will always believe it to be a lie.
It has to backed up by a credible source before I start believing anything
at all from Erik
For too many times, IMO, Erik F has walked away from things *he's* claimed &
never answered them. Claims for example about:-
What about using MS TT fonts on Linux?

How did the Morris worm spread by email?

Where does NTFS store its journal?

And also what about the "thousands of root exploits per month" he claimed,
& was then found to be making it all up?

Even though I don't read Rex (too long winded IMHO), I wouldn't take EF's
word for *anything*.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Kier
More than once.
That I would not believe at all. And certainly DFS has yet to "prove"
something. He should start with proving that he actually has at least one
working braincell
The linux vulnerabilities that he used to publish, for a start, (& was
disproved on many an occasion, as they were duplicated & didn't affect
every distro etc) was one thing that didn't seem to pentrate his skull.
Just one example that he's yet to prove he's got a braincell.
--
Operating systems:
FreeBSD 6.2, Debian 4.0
PCLinuxOS 2007, (K)Ubuntu 7.04
Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" alpha - Tribe 5
DFS
2007-09-23 02:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Poaster
The linux vulnerabilities that he used to publish, for a start, (& was
disproved on many an occasion
Nothing was disproved, of course.
Post by William Poaster
, as they were duplicated & didn't affect
every distro etc)
Nor did I ever claim they did.
Post by William Poaster
was one thing that didn't seem to pentrate his
skull. Just one example that he's yet to prove he's got a braincell.
Nearly every cola poster makes some kind of contribution, and has a reason
for being here. What's yours, Dumb Willie? Literally all you've been able
to do for the last 3 years is make inane comments about your killfiles and
about "trolls".

Shouldn't you leave cola forever and find another group that would accept
your sheer worthlessness? How about alt.test?
Tim Smith
2007-09-23 00:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
Post by Kier
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy. He spouts
fantasies most of the time. Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
But for Roy, a little thing like a conspiracy among pretty much everyone
connected with the development of Java, the web, Linux, GNU, and the
other things Rex is responsible for, to write Rex out of all published
accounts of those things, would be par for the course. I'm sure at some
point, he'll even manage to tie that to the Microsoft conspiracy that
has let Microsoft take over several major world governments.

(Hell, they even got to OpenBSD. Roy thinks Theo is working for
Microsoft...)
--
--Tim Smith
Kier
2007-09-23 01:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
Post by Kier
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy. He spouts
fantasies most of the time. Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
But for Roy, a little thing like a conspiracy among pretty much everyone
connected with the development of Java, the web, Linux, GNU, and the
other things Rex is responsible for, to write Rex out of all published
accounts of those things, would be par for the course. I'm sure at some
point, he'll even manage to tie that to the Microsoft conspiracy that
has let Microsoft take over several major world governments.
(Hell, they even got to OpenBSD. Roy thinks Theo is working for
Microsoft...)
Tim, you've become an arsehole just lately. You used to stick to facts,
now you just use personal attacks to make a point. Why?
--
Kier
Peter Köhlmann
2007-09-23 02:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kier
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
Post by Kier
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy. He spouts
fantasies most of the time. Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
But for Roy, a little thing like a conspiracy among pretty much everyone
connected with the development of Java, the web, Linux, GNU, and the
other things Rex is responsible for, to write Rex out of all published
accounts of those things, would be par for the course. I'm sure at some
point, he'll even manage to tie that to the Microsoft conspiracy that
has let Microsoft take over several major world governments.
(Hell, they even got to OpenBSD. Roy thinks Theo is working for
Microsoft...)
Tim, you've become an arsehole just lately.
"Just lately" being somewhere around "years ago"
Post by Kier
You used to stick to facts,
"Tim Hadron" facts, to be more to the point
Post by Kier
now you just use personal attacks to make a point. Why?
Because he has no actual points left?
--
Ogden's Law:
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.
Kier
2007-09-23 08:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Kier
Post by Tim Smith
Post by Kier
Post by Roy Schestowitz
Post by Kier
He'd be better off not spouting fantastic nonsense as if it were true.
*sigh*
Read what he writes, and get your head out of your arse, Roy. He spouts
fantasies most of the time. Just because he's a Linux advocate doesn't
mean he can get away with spouting crap.
But for Roy, a little thing like a conspiracy among pretty much everyone
connected with the development of Java, the web, Linux, GNU, and the
other things Rex is responsible for, to write Rex out of all published
accounts of those things, would be par for the course. I'm sure at some
point, he'll even manage to tie that to the Microsoft conspiracy that
has let Microsoft take over several major world governments.
(Hell, they even got to OpenBSD. Roy thinks Theo is working for
Microsoft...)
Tim, you've become an arsehole just lately.
"Just lately" being somewhere around "years ago"
No, just lately. He was okay before.
Post by Peter Köhlmann
Post by Kier
You used to stick to facts,
"Tim Hadron" facts, to be more to the point
Post by Kier
now you just use personal attacks to make a point. Why?
Because he has no actual points left?
He does, but he seems to prefer being unpleasant when it's not necessary.
But then, matbe he doesn't like being called Timmy for no good reason.
--
Kier
DFS
2007-09-23 02:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
<snip>
Rex, your knowledge and time will be better spent not replying to
trolls. Even if they provoke for replies by refuting, lying to, and
ridiculing you, it will be best to ignore them. By replying, you're
only asking for more (now or in the future).
Just my opinion anyway...
How many hours do you dedicate each day to finding pro-Linux and anti-MS
info, repackaging and reformatting it and sending it to
comp.os.linux.advocacy (and God knows where else you post your stupidity)?
4 hours? 6? more?

Yeah, you're the one to tell people how to spend their time, you lying
spamming psycho.
DFS
2007-09-21 05:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT
(
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_TYP VARCHAR(5) NOT NULL ,
DEPT VARCHAR(20) NOT NULL ,
TITLE VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
LAST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
FIRST_NM VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL ,
EMAIL VARCHAR(50) NULL
);
You probably never tried this code on anything other than Windows
Access/SQL Server did you.
That code won't execute in Access. But it will in Oracle, and with some
minimal changes in SQL Server and DB2.
Post by Rex Ballard
In my world, we need to be able to support Oracle, DB2, SQL Server,
and MySQL.
Just for grins, I pumped your code into MySQL. It didn't like it at
all.
Excellent! My code's too good for MySQL.

After fixing that trailing comma you found (the horror!) here's the response
when I ran that exact DDL in Oracle 9i:
Loading Image...

Nothin' but net!
Post by Rex Ballard
Congratulations - you failed yet another portability test!
I'm glad. It was written explicitly for Oracle, and I wouldn't let my stuff
be created in MySQL (PostgreSQL might be ok though).
Post by Rex Ballard
You again have demonstrated that you are barely competent to write
DDL, you certainly wouldn't qualify as a DBA.
You found a misplaced comma and I'm disqualified?

What do you say to people who lie about their work being the basis for Java,
SSL, and the web browsing industry? Who claim Martin-Marietta developed
bombs out of notes they stole out of a high-school student's locker? How
qualified would that kind of person be? Would you consider that person
trustworthy?
Post by Rex Ballard
mysql> You had a trailing comma. Again, nonportable, and shows that
you never tested it on anything other than Access.
I never tested that code against Access, 'cause I'm smart enough to know it
won't work in Access.
Post by Rex Ballard
Does this even work on SQL Server?
This question indicates you know nothing about SQL Server, so stop
pretending you know everything, and you support all platforms.
Post by Rex Ballard
I'm surprised you didn't create a separate code for e-mail, since most
people have more than one.
For this exercise, I removed a second email column from the Contact table.
Post by Rex Ballard
You didn't really normalize properly (Person and Location should be
two tables), but you may have denormalized for performance.
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_ADDR
(
ADDR_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
ADDR_TYP VARCHAR(15) NOT NULL,
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_ADDR
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ADDR PRIMARY KEY
( ADDR_ID );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT_ADDR ON TL_CNTCT_ADDR
( CNTCT_ID, ADDR_TYP );
so I can record their home address, office address, and mistress' address
separately?

If that had been a business requirement I would have.
Post by Rex Ballard
Title is potentially confusing in this form. It could be salutations
(Mr, Ms, Mrs, Miss, Dr, Fr,...) or positions (President, Director,
Manager, Specialist,...).
Positions could be confusing as well: President, Manager, doggy-style,
missionary...
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away as
fast as possible. So did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial.
And Jabba Bailo.
Since you mentioned me by name, I thought I'd give myself an hour.
I appreciate the feedback and all - I really do - but all you came up with
is one trailing comma, and a few strange warnings generated by a totally
inferior MySQL program? That's it?

Oracle loved my code. And so did my Momma.
Post by Rex Ballard
This is a pretty simple example.
As intended. Yet nobody - least of all Dumb Willie - has risen to the
original challenge: build a user interface around the structure.
Post by Rex Ballard
Most of my projects involve 20-200
tables with anywhere from 5 to 25 fields per table.
I know, I know: 3 petabytes of storage, 3000 transactions per second,
multinational, blah blah blah I'm an IT Sooperman!

You didn't read my reply to Ghost. The full structure is 80 tables, and I
constructed a nice app around it, with interfaces/links/imports/exports to 6
other internal systems. It currently has 90 registered users and around
1000 properties being processed through it. Plus I made at least $100,000
working on it.

Like other custom systems I've built for this client, it will be in place
for years longer than they intended. Know why? 'Cause $100,000 is cheap,
and it has a lot of features, flexibility, analysis and reports, etc. They
call it a prototype, but I'll revisit them in 5 years and I can practically
guarantee it's still in place.

Only downside is it's fat client Access on Citrix: hard to update and
deploy, mediocre db server, and doesn't scale very well. But for their
needs, it's a great fit.
Post by Rex Ballard
I'd also use RSA to lay out the data classes and then use interaction
diagrams to map out the flow between the classes. RSA would generate
the DAO classes.
Not familiar with RSA.
Post by Rex Ballard
Still, it's pretty simple to do this in OO Base. Base is a bit like
ACCESS, but works with about 2 dozen databases.
OpenOffice Base is a piece of crap. There's no other way to say it. It
pales in comparison to Access95, even.
Post by Rex Ballard
And the DDL generated by the CASE tool is portable to all of those
databases.
I'm sure it's a huge mess of spaghetti code. Post some of it so I can watch
it fail in Oracle and Access and SQL Server.
Post by Rex Ballard
And what exactly did you want to do with the Chain code? Is that
chain of command - like manager?
Like restaurant chain or brand.
Rex Ballard
2007-09-21 10:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
You probably never tried this code on anything other than Windows
Access/SQL Server did you.
That code won't execute in Access. But it will in Oracle, and with some
minimal changes in SQL Server and DB2.
And with minimal changes, the same code will work on all databases.
Writing portable SQL isn't that hard, but it does require that you
adhere to some standards.
The OSS databases tend to be stricter with the standards (you can set
flags for different extensions).
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
In my world, we need to be able to support Oracle, DB2, SQL Server,
and MySQL.
Just for grins, I pumped your code into MySQL. It didn't like it at
all.
Excellent! My code's too good for MySQL.
:-D Very amusing. ROFL.
Post by DFS
After fixing that trailing comma you found (the horror!) here's the response
when I ran that exact DDL in Oracle 9i:http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/Oracle_CNTCT.PNG
So you admit that you published defective code. How was the code
generated?
Did you write the DDL by hand?
Post by DFS
Nothin' but net!
Post by Rex Ballard
Congratulations - you failed yet another portability test!
I'm glad. It was written explicitly for Oracle, and I wouldn't let my stuff
be created in MySQL (PostgreSQL might be ok though).
If you are going to impress me with your prowess in SQL, I would hope
that
you would publish, as your best example, code that would compile under
ANY database.
The corrections I made yielded code that would build on any SQL
Standard database.

Which standard were you following?
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
You again have demonstrated that you are barely competent to write
DDL, you certainly wouldn't qualify as a DBA.
You found a misplaced comma and I'm disqualified?
You're the one who published non-portable SQL as your "best effort".
Post by DFS
What do you say to people who lie about their work being the basis for Java,
SSL, and the web browsing industry?
If you showed me e-mails that dated back to the late 1970s showing
that you,
(or one of your professors) were writing relational relational
databases in the 1970s,
and you told me that you had seen some features you had mentioned in a
Masters' Thesis,
PHD Dissertation, or work related project published within 6-12 months
before the feature
was included in a commercial database product, I would be willing to
consider the possibility
that you might have contributed to the development of SQL.

You are the one who gives me more credit than I have claimed. I
claimed to have contributed
technology that may have impacted Java, such as an object oriented
flavor of RPC that is similar
to something that appeared in Java as RMI about 6-12 months later.
The project I was working on
was Dow Data Protocol, used by Dow Jones for publishing news feeds
containing tagged mark-up.
One flavor used tags that were similar to SGML (which I had used when
at IBM as a consultant), and
the other used tags similar to those used in DCE, with object oriented
structure. It was similar to IIOP
in CORBA, which I had also reviewed briefly.

It could be that Sun just used IIOP, but why didn't they follow the
IIOP standard for RMI?

It could be that JAX was just based on IBM's GML, which was
standardized as part of Athena's SGML,
which was used in the Athena "Andrew" toolkit.

Even if Dow Jones had filed for patents, those patents might have been
nullified by Sun. I worked on DDP in May through November of 1993.
Sun introduced RMI in August of 1993.

It could be coincidence. There were similarities. Dow Jones was an
active Sun customer (they used SparcStations to mark-up news articles
from news wires such as PR NewsWire and AP NewsWire and add catagory
codes and other classifier codes in the Dow Jones news feeds,
including DowVision.

Dow Jones was also a VERY EARLY adopter of Java as well.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
mysql> You had a trailing comma. Again, nonportable, and shows that
you never tested it on anything other than Access.
I never tested that code against Access, 'cause I'm smart enough to know it
won't work in Access.
So you published buggy code as a "final release" of your "best work"?
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Does this even work on SQL Server?
This question indicates you know nothing about SQL Server, so stop
pretending you know everything, and you support all platforms.
No, it just indicates that I didn't have SQL Server installed on my
PC, and didn't want
to go through the hassle of reconfiguring a new PC to test out code
that should have
been portable across platforms, and turned out to be incompatible with
any platform (including oracle)
as written.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I'm surprised you didn't create a separate code for e-mail, since most
people have more than one.
For this exercise, I removed a second email column from the Contact table.
Fair enough. maybe that's why you left the trailing comma as well.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
You didn't really normalize properly (Person and Location should be
two tables), but you may have denormalized for performance.
Post by DFS
CREATE TABLE TL_CNTCT_ADDR
(
ADDR_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
CNTCT_ID NUMBER(8,0) NOT NULL ,
ADDR_TYP VARCHAR(15) NOT NULL,
ADDR1 VARCHAR(35) NOT NULL ,
ADDR2 VARCHAR(35) NULL ,
CITY VARCHAR(30) NOT NULL ,
STATECD VARCHAR(2) NOT NULL ,
ZIP VARCHAR(9) NOT NULL
);
ALTER TABLE TL_CNTCT_ADDR
ADD CONSTRAINT PK_TL_CNTCT_ADDR PRIMARY KEY
( ADDR_ID );
CREATE UNIQUE INDEX UIDX_CONTACT_ADDR ON TL_CNTCT_ADDR
( CNTCT_ID, ADDR_TYP );
so I can record their home address, office address, and mistress' address
separately?
No, so that you don't have to pack the same address used for 2,000
people in every single record.
If someone works for a company, at a corporate office, the address is
the same, you just need
the "drop" information.

Some companies even use the 6 digit zip code for City/State, or to
validate the City/State. Federal Express, for example charges a REX
charge (Revenue EXception) when your Zip code does not match the city/
state listed in the tracker's internal "database". (The boss thought
it was funny to give the REX scan to "Rex"). The charge is 75 cents,
but the correction prevents late packages, a savings of $20-$200 per
package.
Post by DFS
If that had been a business requirement I would have.
Post by Rex Ballard
Title is potentially confusing in this form. It could be salutations
(Mr, Ms, Mrs, Miss, Dr, Fr,...) or positions (President, Director,
Manager, Specialist,...).
Positions could be confusing as well: President, Manager, doggy-style,
missionary...
The spec wasn't that detailed. In most schema's I've worked with we
have a "salutation"
since that's the standard used in EDI and other industry standard
schemas. Not a huge deal.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Talk's cheap, and you're all hot air chump, and you'll slink away as
fast as possible. So did Rex Ballard, who called my work trivial.
And Jabba Bailo.
Since you mentioned me by name, I thought I'd give myself an hour.
I appreciate the feedback and all - I really do - but all you came up with
is one trailing comma, and a few strange warnings generated by a totally
inferior MySQL program? That's it?
Oracle loved my code. And so did my Momma.
Post by Rex Ballard
This is a pretty simple example.
As intended. Yet nobody - least of all Dumb Willie - has risen to the
original challenge: build a user interface around the structure.
It took me about 45 minutes to code it up and have a working drop-down
table in OO Base.
About the same amount of time it would take in Access.

I could have done it in PHP with MySQL to create a simple GUI
interface with drop-downs for salutations.
Wasn't sure what to do with chain.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Most of my projects involve 20-200
tables with anywhere from 5 to 25 fields per table.
I know, I know: 3 petabytes of storage, 3000 transactions per second,
multinational, blah blah blah I'm an IT Sooperman!
When you work for IBM, it's very rare that you get an "easy" one.
Even the ones that look easy tend to have security issues, stability
issues, performance issues, and every extra byte in the database due
to denormalization could be another hundred gigabytes in the storage
array. Processing checks for banks, reconciling trades for brokers,
or processing claims for insurance companies like Prudential, MetLife,
Blue Cross/Blue Shield, or managing insurance policies for corporate
auto fleets for Zurich.

Even a simple "customer" database can be pretty complex, especially
when you have to write code that assures compliance with federal court
cases, such as preventing Life Insurance actuaries from looking at
Health Insurance medical records, or not letting the Stock brokers
look at your Life Insurance value.

Even which fields of a table can be accessed has to be strictly
controlled. Fortunately Oracle and DB2 have those security
capabilities.

When NT 4.0 first came out, Microsoft tried to sell it as a
replacement for UNIX systems such as Solaris or AIX. The VB
programmers tried to put all of the "business logic" into the GUI, and
agents who knew access were hacking into the back-end databases
because the security was not reliable. There were DLL conflicts
(Often called "DLL Hell") between the various applications, especially
3rd party applications. Of course, if you needed to split the
functions handled by a single Solaris or AIX server into 4-5 Windows
servers, you also had to have a "hot standby" server for each primary
server, which meant you needed 8-10 servers. The IIS server permitted
unlimited users, and an enterprise license for the database solved the
back-end CALs issues, but the 2-3 application servers in the middle,
with their mirrors, could be a real problem.

Usually the "per user" licenses sneak up on you. One year the rep is
telling you "you only need 10-20 user licenses". A year later they
want $20 million in user license fees, one for every customer who has
registered to access your database, or accesses your Web Application
Server as a "Session". One company got hit with a bill for $250
million in unexpected client access licenses for 100 million customers
who were accessing the web site.

When you write your GUI, all you need to do is make sure that the user
doesn't try to stuff a SQL command into the description field and end
up pulling confidential customer records as a "result set".

As an IT Architect, I need to make sure that my client doesn't get a
"surprise" bill for 20% of their profits. :-D

No biggie, I blow off steam by posting in this newsgroup. Then I can
be nice and calm with my clients.
Post by DFS
You didn't read my reply to Ghost. The full structure is 80 tables, and I
constructed a nice app around it, with interfaces/links/imports/exports to 6
other internal systems. It currently has 90 registered users and around
1000 properties being processed through it. Plus I made at least $100,000
working on it.
Not bad. Good for a Small Business Project. That might even be a
good fit for Windows 2003 server.
Especially if you have a full-time "IT Guy" who only knows Windows
trying to do "server administration"
using the GUI interface. Of course, that remote access through the
Internet firewall opens a big security hole,
but with some UNIX or Linux Firewalls (CISCO, Nortel, LinkSys), you
can provide good VPN protection that will almost be secure. Until the
"admin" pulls a worm or trojan while looking at a naked tennis star,
and suddenly the web site turns into a spam-bot, along with every PC
connecting to the server (because you couldn't resist using VB .NET
ActiveX controls to download "fat clients").

I usually have a "DFS Special" somewhere on my projects. Some small
business who has a niche market and assumes that a Windows "Fat
Client" is the only way to administer a database. It usually takes
them a few staff-months to figure out how to write the SOAP interfaces
and get them secured properly. Sometimes it just means that the
client has to hire a full time "box booter" for each shift. His job
is to wait for an alarm that tells him the Windows box has gone nuts,
do the necessary GUI interfaces to safely switch to the backup, safely
and cleanly stabilize the defective server, and reboot the box. If it
doesn't come back up successfully, they usually start making calls to
the VB programmer, who looks at a few things, then tells them to
reimage the hard drive. Fortunately, with VMWare, it's much easier to
re-image the box. Hard to believe that there are still some products
that won't work with VMWare (or any other virtualization tool).

When I sees those types of scenarios, my job is to identify the risks,
document them, and make sure that the client assumes the risk
formally, so that my company doesn't get sued for malpractice.
Post by DFS
Like other custom systems I've built for this client, it will be in place
for years longer than they intended. Know why? 'Cause $100,000 is cheap,
and it has a lot of features, flexibility, analysis and reports, etc. They
call it a prototype, but I'll revisit them in 5 years and I can practically
guarantee it's still in place.
Given the sparse requirements, I'm not surprised. and yes, $100,000
is cheap for a system with 80 tables 1000 properties, and 25 users.
If all of those users are using the internal corporate network, the
system only needs to be fully functional during "banker's
hours" (9-4), and only needs to function 5 days/week, and you can
switch to a back-up system in a few minutes, and you have redundant
storage systems and real-time mirroring, then you might have a good
solution for a small business. What's the return on investment? 1000
properties? Rentals? Revenues of $2 million/month? Savings is
compared to what? Stick pins or QuickBooks?

You made $100,000 on the deal, but what was the total price of the
project for production deployment?
How much for Windows 2003 server licenses?
How much for Oracle Licenses?
How much for Client Access Licenses?
How many servers were needed?
How much for support contracts?
How much for maintenance and support?

Was total price of the entire "Solution" price more like $1 million?

What would the price have been for a comparable Linux/OSS system?
How much for
royalties?
support?
secure remote access?
remote management?
Client licenses?

You probably gave the customer a fair price for the consulting, but
were you responsible for the entire solution?
If you missed something, who would they sue?
If they need defects fixed, will you be available?
How soon can you solve their problem?
How long would it take for someone else to step into your shoes?
Post by DFS
Only downside is it's fat client Access on Citrix: hard to update and
deploy, mediocre db server, and doesn't scale very well. But for their
needs, it's a great fit.
WOW! That's like saying "drill a hole through my firewall, give total
access to the outsider, with no ability to monitor actions taken, and
root access to a business critical server. Why not ask for root
access to the UNIX server via rsh as well?
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I'd also use RSA to lay out the data classes and then use interaction
diagrams to map out the flow between the classes. RSA would generate
the DAO classes.
Not familiar with RSA.
Obviously. Rational Software Architect.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Still, it's pretty simple to do this in OO Base. Base is a bit like
ACCESS, but works with about 2 dozen databases.
OpenOffice Base is a piece of crap. There's no other way to say it. It
pales in comparison to Access95, even.
Not as good as RSA either. I wanted to use tools that anyone could
access, without having to get special licenses, and see how long it
would take to do the simple task. Not a bad tool for quick-and-dirty
jobs.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
And the DDL generated by the CASE tool is portable to all of those
databases.
I'm sure it's a huge mess of spaghetti code. Post some of it so I can watch
it fail in Oracle and Access and SQL Server.
I did.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
And what exactly did you want to do with the Chain code? Is that
chain of command - like manager?
Like restaurant chain or brand.
OK. Not clear.

One of the issues I had with most of your DDL is that it wasn't well
named.
I understand that in a large database, you often use notation to make
the table names shorter and descriptive.
For a simple example, better table names might have made the function
clear.

It took longer to respond to this post than it took to create the
solution on Base.

I suppose I should try it in Eclipse or RSA. Maybe later.
DFS
2007-09-21 15:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
In my world, we need to be able to support Oracle, DB2, SQL Server,
and MySQL.
Just for grins, I pumped your code into MySQL. It didn't like it at
all.
Excellent! My code's too good for MySQL.
:-D Very amusing. ROFL.
Post by DFS
After fixing that trailing comma you found (the horror!) here's the
response when I ran that exact DDL in Oracle
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/Oracle_CNTCT.PNG
So you admit that you published defective code.
Yes, I cannot tell a lie: I posted DDL with a typo in it.
Post by Rex Ballard
How was the code generated? Did you write the DDL by hand?
Generated by a VB program I wrote, then I did a little hand tweaking before
posting it, and put in that trailing comma that cost the client $500,000 and
ruined my repuation.
Post by Rex Ballard
The corrections I made yielded code that would build on any SQL
Standard database.
Which standard were you following?
Oracle.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
You again have demonstrated that you are barely competent to write
DDL, you certainly wouldn't qualify as a DBA.
You found a misplaced comma and I'm disqualified?
You're the one who published non-portable SQL as your "best effort".
I published DDL to let Dumb Willie Poaster build a few tables and show me
his mad RAD skillz. He slunk away like cola "advocates" always do when you
challenge their lies and bullshit.

And I have to wonder why you're all of a sudden so db-agnostic. By day you
hawk and preach DB2 for IBM, but at night you're suddenly "portable to all
SQL databases". Is it the money thing? Yes it is: for the right money,
you'll promote whatever closed-source technology is placed in front of you.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
What do you say to people who lie about their work being the basis for Java,
SSL, and the web browsing industry?
If you showed me e-mails that dated back to the late 1970s showing
that you,
(or one of your professors) were writing relational relational
databases in the 1970s,
and you told me that you had seen some features you had mentioned in a
Masters' Thesis,
PHD Dissertation, or work related project published within 6-12 months
before the feature
was included in a commercial database product, I would be willing to
consider the possibility
that you might have contributed to the development of SQL.
You are the one who gives me more credit than I have claimed.
ROFL!
Post by Rex Ballard
I claimed to have contributed
technology that may have impacted Java, such as an object oriented
flavor of RPC that is similar
to something that appeared in Java as RMI about 6-12 months later.
You said the project you managed and were lead designer on (Dow Data
Protocol) was obtained by Sun, altered "a bit" and released as Java.

And you claimed a post you submitted to a mailing list was the foundation
for SSL in Netscape.

And you claimed Lycos, Yahoo and Amazon became huge businesses after you
answered questions on a mailing list.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Does this even work on SQL Server?
This question indicates you know nothing about SQL Server, so stop
pretending you know everything, and you support all platforms.
No, it just indicates that I didn't have SQL Server installed on my
PC, and didn't want
to go through the hassle of reconfiguring a new PC to test out code
that should have
been portable across platforms, and turned out to be incompatible with
any platform (including oracle) as written.
I didn't have a problem submitting it to Oracle, and I don't care about
"portable across platforms".
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I'm surprised you didn't create a separate code for e-mail, since
most people have more than one.
For this exercise, I removed a second email column from the Contact table.
Fair enough. maybe that's why you left the trailing comma as well.
No. The DDL was generated - flawlessly - by a VB program I wrote. I
hand-edited it a little before posting.

It's very telling that a misplaced comma typo forms the basis for most of
your attack. That's just the kind of guy you are.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
This is a pretty simple example.
As intended. Yet nobody - least of all Dumb Willie - has risen to the
original challenge: build a user interface around the structure.
It took me about 45 minutes to code it up and have a working drop-down
table in OO Base.
About the same amount of time it would take in Access.
Why so long? It took me about 3 minutes to create it in Oracle, another 5
minutes to create an ODBC DSN, a couple to link the tables into an Access
system - then the fun starts: build the interface, and attach some nice
logic to let users do easy filtering.
Post by Rex Ballard
I could have done it in PHP with MySQL to create a simple GUI
interface with drop-downs for salutations.
Do your clients pay $300/hour for simple GUI interfaces written in PHP
hitting MySQL databases?
Post by Rex Ballard
When you write your GUI, all you need to do is make sure that the user
doesn't try to stuff a SQL command into the description field and end
up pulling confidential customer records as a "result set".
I don't have to worry about that stuff with an Access system. My worries
are along the line of "will today be the day the database corrupts"?
Post by Rex Ballard
As an IT Architect, I need to make sure that my client doesn't get a
"surprise" bill for 20% of their profits. :-D
Only 20%? They'd wonder why the bill was so low this month.

Normally your exorbitant rates have the downstream effect of forcing
corporate layoffs and making widows and children go hungry so you can get
your "tribute" and pass some of it along to MS (for recommending IBM client
software that runs only on Windows).

But I realize hawking overpriced consulting and proprietary products is just
your day job; by night you're an open source avenger who tells everyone they
should be using Linux.

Like most cola "advocates" you adhere to the old adage 'Do as I say not as I
do'.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
You didn't read my reply to Ghost. The full structure is 80 tables, and I
constructed a nice app around it, with
interfaces/links/imports/exports to 6
other internal systems. It currently has 90 registered users and
around 1000 properties being processed through it. Plus I made at
least $100,000
working on it.
Not bad. Good for a Small Business Project. That might even be a
good fit for Windows 2003 server.
It's for a small department in a large company. I believe the Citrix server
is hosted on Win2003.
Post by Rex Ballard
Especially if you have a full-time "IT Guy" who only knows Windows
trying to do "server administration" using the GUI interface.
I admit I'm not thrilled with the work habits and knowledge level of the
"system engineer" who manages the server and the Citrix deployments. He's
an unresponsive, corporate slacker, cover-your-ass, two levels of approval
to copy a new file
to the server kind of guy. Really puts up obstacles.
Post by Rex Ballard
Of course, that remote access through the
Internet firewall opens a big security hole,
but with some UNIX or Linux Firewalls (CISCO, Nortel, LinkSys), you
can provide good VPN protection that will almost be secure.
We use a Cisco VPN client, not sure about the firewall.
Post by Rex Ballard
Until the
"admin" pulls a worm or trojan while looking at a naked tennis star,
and suddenly the web site turns into a spam-bot, along with every PC
connecting to the server (because you couldn't resist using VB .NET
ActiveX controls to download "fat clients").
Don't project your failings onto me.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Like other custom systems I've built for this client, it will be in place
for years longer than they intended. Know why? 'Cause $100,000 is cheap,
and it has a lot of features, flexibility, analysis and reports, etc. They
call it a prototype, but I'll revisit them in 5 years and I can practically
guarantee it's still in place.
Given the sparse requirements, I'm not surprised.
You know nothing about the requirements.
Post by Rex Ballard
and yes, $100,000
is cheap for a system with 80 tables 1000 properties, and 25 users.
If all of those users are using the internal corporate network, the
system only needs to be fully functional during "banker's
hours" (9-4), and only needs to function 5 days/week, and you can
switch to a back-up system in a few minutes, and you have redundant
storage systems and real-time mirroring, then you might have a good
solution for a small business.
Considering they refused to deploy in Oracle, it shouldn't surprise you to
find out there's no redundancy or real-time mirroring.
Post by Rex Ballard
What's the return on investment?
That's elusive when discussing IT systems.
Post by Rex Ballard
1000 properties? Rentals? Revenues of $2 million/month? Savings is
compared to what? Stick pins or QuickBooks?
It helps them track the process of opening new properties, which generate
hundreds of millions in revenue each year. But I can't assign that revenue
to this system, or to any IT system.
Post by Rex Ballard
You made $100,000 on the deal, but what was the total price of the
project for production deployment?
How much for Windows 2003 server licenses? (cheap)
How much for Oracle Licenses? (none)
How much for Client Access Licenses? (few thousand)
How many servers were needed? 2 (one production, one dev)
How much for support contracts? (none that I know of)
How much for maintenance and support? (little)
Was total price of the entire "Solution" price more like $1 million?
Not even close. At the very most $200,000, but it depends on how you
allocate costs.

* I worked full-time developing and enhancing
* business analyst part-time for 6 months
* 2 new HP servers ($7K each, I assume Windows OS was included)
* sysadmin: initial setup, then part-time
* some of the Citrix server/seat licenses were already in place
* all Office licenses already in place
Post by Rex Ballard
What would the price have been for a comparable Linux/OSS system?
At least for the front-end, a comparable Linux/OSS system can't be
constructed. The crapware is too shoddy.
Post by Rex Ballard
How much for
royalties?
support?
secure remote access?
remote management?
Client licenses?
Is this RedHat or Suse Enterprise? They're both about as costly as Windows,
and with RedHat you have to agree to let them audit you (treat their
customers like crooks), and pay fines if out of license compliance.
Post by Rex Ballard
You probably gave the customer a fair price for the consulting, but
were you responsible for the entire solution?
The database design and the application code, including interfaces with
other systems.
Post by Rex Ballard
If you missed something, who would they sue?
Me. But they would never cut their own wrists like that.
Post by Rex Ballard
If they need defects fixed, will you be available?
Until I get sick of doing it - which point I'm getting to.
Post by Rex Ballard
How soon can you solve their problem?
asap
Post by Rex Ballard
How long would it take for someone else to step into your shoes?
A long time.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Only downside is it's fat client Access on Citrix: hard to update and
deploy, mediocre db server, and doesn't scale very well. But for
their needs, it's a great fit.
WOW! That's like saying "drill a hole through my firewall, give total
access to the outsider, with no ability to monitor actions taken, and
root access to a business critical server. Why not ask for root
access to the UNIX server via rsh as well?
The more you blab in every one of your posts, the more it's clear you don't
know nearly as much as you claim to know in every one of your posts.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Still, it's pretty simple to do this in OO Base. Base is a bit like
ACCESS, but works with about 2 dozen databases.
OpenOffice Base is a piece of crap. There's no other way to say it.
It pales in comparison to Access95, even.
Not as good as RSA either. I wanted to use tools that anyone could
access, without having to get special licenses, and see how long it
would take to do the simple task. Not a bad tool for quick-and-dirty
jobs.
RSA is a very expensive tool.
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
And the DDL generated by the CASE tool is portable to all of those
databases.
I'm sure it's a huge mess of spaghetti code. Post some of it so I
can watch it fail in Oracle and Access and SQL Server.
I did.
I didn't see it. I saw where you substituted DECIMAL for NUMBER in four
places. Is that what the $multi-thousand CASE tool recommended?
Post by Rex Ballard
One of the issues I had with most of your DDL is that
it wasn't well named. I understand that in a large
database, you often use notation to make
the table names shorter and descriptive. For a simple
example, better table names might have made the function
clear.
I don't like some of the names either, but I tried to make them conform to
the naming standards used by the database group at this client.
Post by Rex Ballard
It took longer to respond to this post than it took to create the
solution on Base.
I suppose I should try it in Eclipse or RSA. Maybe later.
According to the IBM website, RSA is a $3000 to $10000 package.

https://www-112.ibm.com/software/howtobuy/buyingtools/paexpress/Express?P0=E1&part_number=D54LALL,D54LILL,D54S7LL,D59VSLL,D59V7LL&catalogLocale=en_US&locale=en_US&country=USA
Rex Ballard
2007-09-24 17:06:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 21, 11:49 am, "DFS" <***@dfs_.com> wrote:
[snip]

I have better things to do than try to respond to your claims of my
accomplishments.
I know what I did.
My employers know what I did.
I have some documentation that show I was "in the neighborhood"
Even if a co-worker said "yes, Rex did that", you'd be calling HIM a
liar.
DFS
2007-09-25 01:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
[snip]
I have better things to do than try to respond to your claims of my
accomplishments.
They're YOUR claims. All of them. And they're ridiculous.
Post by Rex Ballard
I know what I did.
My employers know what I did.
Fine. But the people that actually created the things you claimed to have
created...

* SSL
* Java
* remote procedure calls
* shttp specs
* added $750 million/year operating profit to FedEx
* contributed verbiage to GPL1
* create $billion industries
* created designs that became Martin-Marietta weaponry
* MS used your ideas/code in MS-DOS and Win2K
* work led to Lynx and Opera
* 8000 new Linux webservers deployed
* dual-boot Windows and Linux was your idea
* first person to sell computers
* first person to rent videos

...DON'T know what you did.

And here's a good one: "I don't know if this eventually evolved into, or
became, Tivoli Storage Manager or not." Answer: it didn't.

And you actually said that you advised Lycos and Yahoo and Amazon how to
"take it to the next level" and they became big businesses not long after
you answered questions on a mailing list.

You're deluded, and you're irresponsible and fraudulent for trying to take
credit from the real creators and contributors.

What's wrong with being satisfied with your true achievements?
Post by Rex Ballard
I have some documentation that show I was "in the neighborhood"
means, motive and opportunity!
nondisclosure agreements!
Google didn't archive it!
boss took credit!
degrees of separation!
man behind the curtain!
Phantom of the Internet!
Kingmaker!
in the neighborhood!

Usenet Kook!
Post by Rex Ballard
Even if a co-worker said "yes, Rex did that", you'd be calling HIM a
liar.
Depends on what he said.
Tim Smith
2007-09-25 01:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I have some documentation that show I was "in the neighborhood"
means, motive and opportunity!
nondisclosure agreements!
Google didn't archive it!
boss took credit!
degrees of separation!
man behind the curtain!
Phantom of the Internet!
Kingmaker!
in the neighborhood!
Usenet Kook!
[At the risk of kicking COLA to the next level of obscure references...]

I wonder if he was in the neighborhood of Isaac Asimov in 1957? Perhaps
the character of Kane in the short story "Does a Bee Care?" was modeled
after him! :-)
--
--Tim Smith
DFS
2007-09-25 12:32:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
[At the risk of kicking COLA to the next level of obscure
references...]
I wonder if he was in the neighborhood of Isaac Asimov in 1957?
Perhaps the character of Kane in the short story "Does a Bee Care?"
was modeled after him! :-)
ha!

Rex, did you send suggestions to Asimov when you were 2 years old? By then
you would have been designing improvised explosive devices...
Anonymous Sender
2007-09-25 20:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Tim Smith wrote: |
|.|
[At the risk of kicking |.| o the next level of obscure
references...] |\./|
|\./|
I wond . |\./| . Asimov in 1957?
Perhaps \^.\ |\\.//| /.^/ ry "Does a Bee Care?"
was mode \--.|\ |\\.//| /|.--/
\--.| \ |\\.//| / |.--/
ha! \---.|\ |\./| /|.---/
\--.|\ |\./| /|.--/
Rex, did you send s \ .\ |.| /. / v when you were 2 years old? By then
you would _ -_^_^_^_- \ \\ // / -_^_^_^_- _ ve devices...
- -/_/_/- ^ ^ ||| ^ ^ -\_\_\- -
|
-------------------
-=[ You MUST be high! ]=-
-------------------
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-25 20:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Tim Smith wrote: |
|.|
[At the risk of kicking |.| o the next level of obscure
references...] |\./|
|\./|
I wond . |\./| . Asimov in 1957?
Perhaps \^.\ |\\.//| /.^/ ry "Does a Bee Care?"
was mode \--.|\ |\\.//| /|.--/
\--.| \ |\\.//| / |.--/
ha! \---.|\ |\./| /|.---/
\--.|\ |\./| /|.--/
Rex, did you send s \ .\ |.| /. / v when you were 2 years old? By then
you would _ -_^_^_^_- \ \\ // / -_^_^_^_- _ ve devices...
- -/_/_/- ^ ^ ||| ^ ^ -\_\_\- -
|
-------------------
-=[ You MUST be high! ]=-
-------------------
Good ASCII art, LOL!
--
HPT
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-09-25 22:36:10 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, High Plains Thumper
<***@invalid.invalid>
wrote
on Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:40:26 +0900
Post by High Plains Thumper
Tim Smith wrote: |
|.|
[At the risk of kicking |.| o the next level of obscure
references...] |\./|
|\./|
I wond . |\./| . Asimov in 1957?
Perhaps \^.\ |\\.//| /.^/ ry "Does a Bee Care?"
was mode \--.|\ |\\.//| /|.--/
\--.| \ |\\.//| / |.--/
ha! \---.|\ |\./| /|.---/
\--.|\ |\./| /|.--/
Rex, did you send s \ .\ |.| /. / v when you were 2 years old? By then
you would _ -_^_^_^_- \ \\ // / -_^_^_^_- _ ve devices...
- -/_/_/- ^ ^ ||| ^ ^ -\_\_\- -
|
-------------------
-=[ You MUST be high! ]=-
-------------------
Good ASCII art, LOL!
And the beauty of it is that it (a) conforms to standards,
and (b) does not require 2 GB RAM and Microsoft Windows Vista(tm)
to generate. :-)
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #992398129:
void f(unsigned u) { if(u < 0) ... }
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Roy Schestowitz
2007-09-26 06:44:33 UTC
Permalink
____/ The Ghost In The Machine on Tuesday 25 September 2007 23:36 : \____
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, High Plains Thumper
on Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:40:26 +0900
Post by High Plains Thumper
Tim Smith wrote: |
|.|
[At the risk of kicking |.| o the next level of obscure
references...] |\./|
|\./|
I wond . |\./| . Asimov in 1957?
Perhaps \^.\ |\\.//| /.^/ ry "Does a Bee Care?"
was mode \--.|\ |\\.//| /|.--/
\--.| \ |\\.//| / |.--/
ha! \---.|\ |\./| /|.---/
\--.|\ |\./| /|.--/
Rex, did you send s \ .\ |.| /. / v when you were 2 years old? By then
you would _ -_^_^_^_- \ \\ // / -_^_^_^_- _ ve devices...
- -/_/_/- ^ ^ ||| ^ ^ -\_\_\- -
|
-------------------
-=[ You MUST be high! ]=-
-------------------
Good ASCII art, LOL!
And the beauty of it is that it (a) conforms to standards,
and (b) does not require 2 GB RAM and Microsoft Windows Vista(tm)
to generate. :-)
Finally. COLA gets graphical. I quite like the ASCII image with the plonking
menus.
--
~~ Best of wishes

.o?? s? bu??? ??ns ou s,????? '??pu?q '???o? ?,uop :???
.o?? ? ??s ? ??bno?? ? pu? ...?????????? so??z pu? s?uo .????p 1n??? u?
???? '???? :??pu?q
http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Tasks: 133 total, 1 running, 132 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
Rex Ballard
2007-09-27 03:35:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
[snip]
I have better things to do than try to
respond to your claims of my
accomplishments.
I know what I did.
My employers know what I did.
Fine. But the people that actually created the things you claimed to have
created...
* SSL
Did you confirm this with Netscape? With all of the people involved
in Mosaic and Netscape development during the weeks and months before
Mozilla came out. I'll give you a hint, I posted my suggestion - a
specification - not actual code, to the online-news mailing list.
Nicholas Negroponte was also a subscriber to that list.

There are also a number of records from that mailing list which would
give you a list of people who might remember me posting something like
this. Essentially, there was a nice little thread about encryption,
DES vs RC5. I suggested that they encrypt the DES key using RC5. At
the time, computers were slow - many people were using 80386 machines,
and RC5 encryption was very slow. In addition, RC5 had recently been
cracked, but DES was still pretty solid. The problem with DES was
that if you used the same key all the time, it could easily be
broken. Since a DES key was orthogonal, it was hard to authenticate
it's origin, and hard to pass without it being intercepted. RC5 (or
other private key such as PGP) would allow you to pass DES the key
from a trusted provider to the client. By having a trusted server,
such as (I suggested the United States Postal Service) as the primary
trusted host, the encryption keys could be verified as trusted.

I made that suggestion less than 30 days before Netscape announced
SSL. Netscape did make three job offers, which I declined. Nothing
against Netscape, but I was playing a bigger game.
Post by DFS
* Java
In 1983, I attended the early meetings of the FORTH-83 standards
committee in Rochester New York. I had discussed the possibility of
creating a parser that could handle C or C++ syntax to generate Forth
"metacode". Remember, Forth is a language which uses a very small
number of "primatives" written for the native machine, and then
compiles a list of the addresses of each primative into new
functions. Then new functions and primitives can be compiled into a
list of addresses, eventually entire systems could be created using
FORTH. About 2 years later, someone wrote a language called NEON
which was similar to this concept. Shortly after that, Bill Joy, who
was still active in usenet, started working on OAK.

There are several really great features of FORTH that Java did not
adopt, but there are also a remarkable similarity as you follow FORTH,
NEON, OAK, and eventually Java.

It could be coincidence. It was very much a 10 year long
conversation. I'm not a "front of the room" player, more like the guy
in the back of the room, making sure that all the logistics are
rights, or the play-write, or even the director. In a movie, the
credits list ALL of the contributors who contributed in ANY way. In
Software, the often mention only the coders and possibly the project
managers.

When I worked for IBM as a consultant in 1991 and 1992, all of my code
was stripped of any indication of authorship. Only the IBM employees
were listed in the credits.

I don't know what Sun's policy is on these things.
Post by DFS
* remote procedure calls
I worked with a guy named Larry Early at Computer Consoles on this
one. We called it a "Virtual Call", but in this case, I know that CCI
and SUN exchanged intellectual property. CCI got NFS, and Sun got
RPC.

There are differences in implementation, and Sun added many new and
excellent features. Larry and I worked on the IDL compiler, skeleton
generator and stub generator, but Sun added new features.
Post by DFS
* shttp specs
That could be a coincidence. In this case, I posted the actual entry
point address, described how to plug in the encryption. And something
almost identical to what I described was posted and announced in the
online-news mailing list (where I had posted these suggestions) about
8 days later.
Post by DFS
* added $750 million/year operating profit to FedEx
I worked on the Federal Express Super Tracker from 1987 to 1990.
While working there, I got 2 bravo zulu awards and my team got a third
Bravo Zulu award for winning the Malcom Baldridge award based on work
in which I participated.

When I joined Federal Express, the tracker was vulnerable to static.
If the courier put the tracker in his cotton pocket, or wore leather
shoes, or even touched a door jam, the static spark would cause the
tracker to reset itself and lose all of it's data. I found a way to
recover all but the characters entered in the most recently entered
field. I had left a company (Computer Consoles) that prided itself on
99.998% uptime for it's directory assistance systems and emergency 911
systems. We took on similar quality levels with the tracker, and
added new scans that reduced the lost or late packages from 5% to 5
packages per million. That was my first Bravo Zulu. Remember, Fedex
was delivering almost 1 million packages per day, and if a package was
delivered late (as recorded by the tracker), the customer wasn't
charged. Saving the company roughly 60,000 late deliveries per day.
By preventing mis-routing and mis-sorting that meant that packages had
to be sent as luggage on commercial airlines, along with getting
revenue that would otherwise have been lost, that was about $30/
package * 60,000 packages per DAY for over 300 days/year, was 1.8
million/day or about $500 million per year.

The Baldridge award was given to the Cosmos II-B project, and the
SuperTracker was a critical element of that project.
Post by DFS
* contributed verbiage to GPL1
Did Richard Stallman actually say I didn't?
Does he remember the conversations with the guys in the net.legal
usenet newsgroup?
Post by DFS
* create $billion industries
Obviously I just enrolled a bunch of leaders into possibilities and
THEY created the industries and companies.

I started working on the commercialization of the Internet in 1991. I
had been working on the commercialization of TCP/IP within the
corporate environment, along with what we now call "Enterprise
Integration" since about 1998, when Federal Express asked me to help
set up and coordinate choosing a network to integrate all of their
various computer systems (including DEC, IBM, Apollo, Sun, MS-DOS,
Mac, and several others). TCP/IP was the only truly practical
solution, and the real arguments became where to use Token Ring
(between the mainframes and router) and where to use Ethernet (Fedex
was an early adopter of 10-baseT).
Post by DFS
* created designs that became Martin-Marietta weaponry
Even if I could prove that one, it would be classified.
I can pretty much bet that you can't prove that I didn't.
I also WORKED at Martin Marietta a few years later (1979).
I was also OFFERED a full scholarship by Martin Marietta in 1973.
Post by DFS
* MS used your ideas/code in MS-DOS and Win2K
The ideas for Win2K were published in usenet newsgroups.
Post by DFS
* work led to Lynx and Opera
I worked at Softronics from January of 1992 to July of 1992.
Softronics (softtronics.com),
which still exists, made the terminal package for OS/2 (SoftTerm), and
offers
a similar package for Windows users. They wanted me to help them
create a
5250 and 3270 interface package that could be run on a number of
different TCP/IP
stacks.

I was taking a course called the Self Expression and Leadership
Program, a course offered by Landmark Education
(landmarkeducation.com). My original plan was to get about 10
programmers I new and create a terminal package that would let users
dial into Internet PANIX sites (public access dial-up sites offered by
local colleges and universities around 1990-1992

When the initial effort failed, I started sharing the project on
usenet. Host managers were concerned about users having "write
access" to their hosts. In the process of several discussion threads,
we generated a team of about 30 people, and about 1/2 of those thirty
people took on leadership roles and started their own projects (this
is part of the SELP course design). One of those projects was Lynx,
another, which was inspired by Lynx, was Viola, which inspired Cello,
which inspired Mosaic.

If you put 30 highly skilled technical leaders in a room, said "here's
what we need to create global abundance", offered to let them lead the
project and give away your ideas for free (no royalties, obligations,
NDAs, restrictions, or contracts), and each of them was willing to
work 20-30 hours/week on these projects, and generate a team of 10-20
people, what could be accomplished? This is what the Landmark program
trained each of it's participants to do.
Post by DFS
* 8000 new Linux web servers deployed
8000 new web servers, most of which started as Linux servers - because
the subscribers to the online-news mailing list did not have huge
budgets in 1994-1995. The list started small. There were about 40
techies when I first joined. The list grow to over 8,000 and
eventually I had to stop participating because my e-mail box was
filling up too quickly. Steve Yelvington published stats on how many
subscribers were on the mailing list. I switched over to Usenet
newsgroups in 1997 as they become more available. Initially posting
through deja-news then later through google and others. I also
shifted my effort from publishing to e-commerce and b-2-b- commerce.

Keep in mind that when I worked at Dow Jones, from January of 1993 to
May of 1995, I used the SELP model as well. I had 25 leaders, each of
whom had a team of 10-20 people, who wanted to publish Dow Jones News
feeds to TCP/IP based networks. Initially they published to corporate
networks, later they began publishing to brokerage customers and news
services via the Internet. In this case, they did have contracts with
Dow Jones, and many of them ended up paying handsome annual fees for
delayed feeds of Dow Jones news feeds.
Post by DFS
From 1995 to 1997, I worked with McGraw-Hill - there I had almost 50
banks and brokerages as well as insurance companies and most of the
other big Wall Street firms, who wanted the S&P market feeds. In this
case, we fed them the TCP/IP, making the transition from BSC-3270 and
X.25 to TCP/IP over Frame Relay and later, ATM.
Post by DFS
* dual-boot Windows and Linux was your idea
No. That was Pat Volkerding's Idea. I just proposed to the OEMs that
they could offer the Dual-boot solution, much they way the had already
been offering OS/2 and Windows on the same machine.
Post by DFS
* first person to sell computers
I sold a TRS-80 in July of 1977. Which was a challenge since Radio-
Shack didn't start shipping them until about a month later.
Where did you see me claim that I was the FIRST person to ever sell
computers?

I was selling computers back in 1977 - which was pretty early to be
selling "Personal Computers".
If I actually said I was the FIRST to sell computers, I'd appreciate
you letting me know where on my web site
I said this, so I can make appropriate corrections.

You like to give me credit for things that even I don't claim.
Post by DFS
* first person to rent videos
Not quite. What I do know is that when I proposed a negotiation
between the video tape vendors (Warner Brothers and Paramount) and my
employer, a video store called Video World, the sales rep had never
heard of the concept before.
It took a few days to ink the deal. I think we paid them 1/2 the
rental fees. The manager did the negotiation.

There were other stores renting videos, but I don't think any of THEM
were doing it legally. Maybe the Sales reps just didn't know they
could sell a rental option (though the negotiations were between Video
World management and the lawyers for the studios, not the rep).
Post by DFS
...DON'T know what you did.
You got ONE response from Jim Gosling who didn't know who I was.
Did you subpoena their e-mails?
Did you get court orders for all documentation sent and received?

You've seen my web site. I provided 30,000 documents which do provide
some documentation that at least puts me in the right place at the
right time.
Post by DFS
And here's a good one: "I don't know if this eventually evolved into, or
became, Tivoli Storage Manager or not." Answer: it didn't.
I worked at IBM in 1991, at the Boulder facility, doing a hierarchal
storage management system,
we wanted to make it work for OS/2, Solaris, AIX, and MVS. You wish
to tell me that IBM had nothing
to do with the current product called Tivoli Storage Manager? TSM and
HSM have many similarities.
You're absolutely sure that IBM had nothing to do with any of that
work?
Post by DFS
And you actually said that you advised Lycos and Yahoo and Amazon how to
"take it to the next level" and they became big businesses not long after
you answered questions on a mailing list.
Yep
Post by DFS
What's wrong with being satisfied with your true achievements?
I'm quite satisfied with my true achievements.

My kids lived 1500 miles away, so I had time to contribute to projects
that I felt were worthwhile.
I got frequent coaching from Landmark Education programs, sometimes
even daily. All of those
Landmark Education programs are about producing "breakthrough
results", being cause in the matter,
standing for a possibility even when there is no agreement.

Today, my claims seem preposterous. But that is NOTHING compared to
some of the reactions I got back when I was suggesting that we use TCP/
IP as the corporate network, or that we publish nationally branded
news on the Internet.

There were times when it was almost a joke. At Dow Jones, they would
call me "Mr Internet" or "Mr TCP/IP" as a way of describing me as a
crazy lunatic. But the Landmark training and coaching programs had me
stand for a bigger possibility in the face of all that disagreement.
Eventually, managers started listening, and liked what they heard,
then directors, then executives, and eventually the highest ranking IT
Officers.

There were people on this Linux newsgroup who called me a "nut-case"
for thinking that Linux would ever be more than a hobby used by a few
hackers and students. I've even included a few of those in my Web
Site, and there are dozens more on Google groups.

Of course, you have to get past the links that discuss my cross-
dressing (not a well-kept secret from 1988 to 1995). I eventually
stopped making public appearances because I had gained so much
weight. By September of 2001 I had reached 325 lbs. Even though I've
dropped down to 250, I'm happily married, and there isn't really a
reason to "go public".

Perhaps, just maybe, there is a slight possibility, that one of the
reasons that my name isn't at the forefront of everyone's "yes I
remember him" list, is because I DIDN'T want to give up my ANONYMITY!

You and Erik have made sure that everyone knows that one of the top
leading Linux advocates likes to wear a skirt and high heels. Again,
just go to http://tinyurl.com/2m8j68

You get:

Rex Ballard and GPL
No GPL credit for Rex Ballard
Rex Ballard and GPL

Then
Rex Ballard I am Woman, Hear Me Roar

And on the second page

Rex Ballard and Linux are All Dressed Up with no place to go.

Gee, I wonder why I didn't want my name, address, phone number, and
pictures posted in People, or Forbes?

Maybe because a week later pictures of "Debbie" would end up in the
National Inquirer, next to Brittiney and Paris. Actually, in 1993, it
would have been Madonna.

And about 3 days later, the KKK chapter of Zaraphath New Jersey would
have been burning crosses at my house on across from Blackwell's
Mill's Bridge. Even the house is gone now.
Roy Schestowitz
2007-09-25 09:32:25 UTC
Permalink
____/ Rex Ballard on Monday 24 September 2007 18:06 : \____
Post by Rex Ballard
[snip]
I have better things to do than try to respond to your claims of my
accomplishments.
I know what I did.
My employers know what I did.
I have some documentation that show I was "in the neighborhood"
Even if a co-worker said "yes, Rex did that", you'd be calling HIM a
liar.
Just filter posts from the trolls and you won't be tempted to defend yourself.
You have spent a great deal of energy merely repeating the same arguments and
they keep teasing because they see it touches a serve.

I've seen your name in various places, so it's clear you've make impact long
before I even /knew/ what Linux was.
--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | "Have you compiled your kernel today?"
http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Load average (/proc/loadavg): 2.97 3.46 3.37 1/154 7183
http://iuron.com - semantic search engine project initiative
DFS
2007-09-25 13:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
____/ Rex Ballard on Monday 24 September 2007 18:06 : \____
Post by Rex Ballard
[snip]
I have better things to do than try to respond to your claims of my
accomplishments.
I know what I did.
My employers know what I did.
I have some documentation that show I was "in the neighborhood"
Even if a co-worker said "yes, Rex did that", you'd be calling HIM a
liar.
Just filter posts from the trolls and you won't be tempted to defend yourself.
Good advice: why try to defend an indefensible position? (his and yours)
Post by Roy Schestowitz
You have spent a great deal of energy merely repeating the
same arguments and they keep teasing because they see it touches a
serve.
I've seen your name in various places, so it's clear you've make
impact long before I even /knew/ what Linux was.
So you were reading soc.motss (members.of.the.same.sex) before you got into
Linux?
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-25 20:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Roy Schestowitz
You have spent a great deal of energy merely repeating the
same arguments and they keep teasing because they see it
touches a serve.
I've seen your name in various places, so it's clear you've
make impact long before I even /knew/ what Linux was.
So you were reading soc.motss (members.of.the.same.sex) before
you got into Linux?
http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/01/dfs-troll.html

Another fine advocacy post from Windows user and troll, DFS.
--
HPT
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-25 20:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
"DFS" wrote: [snip]
I have better things to do than try to respond to your
claims of my accomplishments. I know what I did. My
employers know what I did. I have some documentation that
show I was "in the neighborhood" Even if a co-worker said
"yes, Rex did that", you'd be calling HIM a liar.
Just filter posts from the trolls and you won't be tempted to
defend yourself. You have spent a great deal of energy merely
repeating the same arguments and they keep teasing because
they see it touches a serve.
I've seen your name in various places, so it's clear you've
make impact long before I even /knew/ what Linux was.
I don't put too much credence into DFS' replies, and after all,
he slinked away from this one

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/411eee6e21591568?

and several others from advocates.

I am seeing a turning tide now. Trolls have effectively lost,
Linux and Open Source are gaining, even in US.

There will come a time when there will no longer need to be
advocacy because of the dominance of Linux and Open Source.
--
HPT
DFS
2007-09-27 04:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
I don't put too much credence into DFS' replies, and after all,
he slinked away from this one
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/411eee6e21591568?
and several others from advocates.
You jag-off. I slink away from nothing.
Post by High Plains Thumper
I am seeing a turning tide now. Trolls have effectively lost,
Linux and Open Source are gaining, even in US.
There will come a time when there will no longer need to be
advocacy because of the dominance of Linux and Open Source.
In the meantime, you better hold onto your Windows job and systems.
[H]omer
2007-09-16 16:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Some of the posters in here poo-pood the idea, but why else would
someone devote their time here to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to
something they despise?
IMHO they're either sick, or they're being paid.
At the very least they're insecure. If GNU/Linux's "tiny market share"
is no threat to them, then what are they so afraid of?
--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| "OOXML is a superb standard"
| - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
17:34:44 up 38 days, 16:29, 2 users, load average: 0.35, 0.27, 0.22
William Poaster
2007-09-16 18:50:16 UTC
Permalink
It was on, or about, Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:36:43 +0100, that as I was
Post by [H]omer
Some of the posters in here poo-pood the idea, but why else would
someone devote their time here to sabotaging a newsgroup dedicated to
something they despise?
IMHO they're either sick, or they're being paid.
At the very least they're insecure. If GNU/Linux's "tiny market share"
is no threat to them, then what are they so afraid of?
Exactly! *If*. But as M$ went out of their way with the trashy "Get the
facts", now discredited & pulled, & as Blammer said Linux was the # 1
threat to M$, I suspect that the "skills" they've learnt with windoze
aren't up to scratch when it comes to linux. So they're scared. Now you
watch them deny this....& ask to yourself "Methinks they doth protest too
much?" (Apologies to WS).
--
Surely you are not comparing the non-existent Linux (at that time) with
(Windows)98? - Hadron aka Hadron Quark, Hans Schneider, & Damian O'Leary
comp.os.linux.advocacy - Thu, 16 Aug 2007
Message-ID: <***@homelinux.net>
High Plains Thumper
2007-09-16 11:45:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by [H]omer
On the other side we have DooFy, a money-obsessed goon who
creates database "apps" using point 'n click toys and crayons,
and devotes the rest of his day to sabotaging a newsgroup
dedicated to something he despises (Linux), because its
proponents fail to live up to his expectations of exploitation
and greed.
Which of the above two posters really has the "sick
obsession"?
Hmm.
May be if he stopped bashing Linux, Open Source and studied up a
little, could increase his income as a Linux/Unix programmer.
OTOH, may be not .....
--
HPT
Gregory Shearman
2007-09-15 08:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Gawd!  For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year.  And not a
single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
--
Regards,

Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
William Poaster
2007-09-15 10:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Shearman
Gawd!  For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year.  And not a
single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Uh, oh...you mentioned black. DooFu$ will be donning his KKK suit as we
post...
--
Operating systems:
FreeBSD 6.2, Debian 4.0
PCLinuxOS 2007, (K)Ubuntu 7.04
Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" alpha - Tribe 5
Borked Pseudo Mailed
2007-09-15 11:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by DFS
Gawd! For 2006 that's 50 posts per day, 365 days a year. And not a
single cola "advocate" questions the sick obsession.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Results 1 - 100 of about 2,660 from Jan 1, 2006 to Jan 1, 2007 for group:comp.os.linux.advocacy author:dfs

Results 1 - 100 of about 13,700 from Jan 1, 2006 to Jan 1, 2007 for group:comp.os.linux.advocacy author:Roy author:Schestowitz
--
"Apps and games can be supported on any OS. Most people just think windows is
the computer they bought." - Gweg, the liar, asshole and Gentoo luser
Rex Ballard
2007-09-15 13:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
One total asshole over in comp.os.linux.advocacy posts thousands of
messages a month to the group and very few get replies except from his
shills, Homer, Mark Kent and William Poaster.
Roy posts articles that are relevant to Linux, showing where Linux has
increased penetration, and how Microsoft has attempted to stop Linux.

Linux has disrupted Microsoft, and even when Linux isn't the only OS
on the user's desktop, applications that were originally written for
Linux have also been designed to run on Windows as well. Firefox,
Open Office, cygwin, and many other applications have begun to put a
dent into Microsoft's "Applications barrier to entry".
Virtualization, Cygwin libraries, Java 2, and AJAX have provided the
ability to support Linux and Windows equally well.
In some cases, it's not even necessary to recompile.

Even when the front end is IE and Windows, it's nearly impossible to
spend a day without going to Linux servers and Unix servers, accessing
server sites powered by Java, PHP, Apache, Tomcat, Jakarta, Struts,
and even JBoss, most of which started as Linux based OSS projects.

Eclipse is becoming one of the most popular multi-platform application
frameworks. The main reason for this is that it supports Linux as
well as Windows.
Post by h***@gmail.com
Another poster posts a couple of messages with topics like 'Linux is
free, Windows is not' and 'People would rather pay for Windows than
get Linux for free'
For most people, the perception is that Windows is free. It comes
with their PC, it's pre-installed, they don't get a significant
discount if they order a machine without it, and the OEM has to pay
for the licenses whether they are used or not.

What is remarkable isn't that so many machines are sold with Windows,
but that so many of those who buy machines that were sold with
Windows, purchase machines that have been optimized to be "Linux
Ready". It's hard to say how many of these "Linux Ready" systems are
actually converted to Linux, but it is very easy to add Linux to most
of these systems.

For most people, Linux isn't a replacement for Windows, it's an
enhancement to the PC. Only about 5% of the Linux user community uses
Linux exclusively. Most Linux users are more pragmatic. They run a
combination of Linux and Windows.

Cygwin provides the ability to run applications written for Linux on
Windows. Cygwin supports Windows 9x, NT 4, 2K, XP, and Vista. Users
can install only the command line applications, or they can install
the X11 server and run Linux graphics applications including KDE and
Gnome tools.

VMWare Player, VirtualPC, and other Virtualization programs allow
Windows users to run Linux as a virtual system on Windows. The
Windows user launches the Linux application like it was an
application. For many new Linux users, "Appliances" of this type are
often the easiest way to try Linux. Many applications vendors have
eliminated the entire installation process, by just offering a VMWare
Player "appliance". Vendors such as Oracle, IBM, SAP, and many others
are now offering "evaluation systems" preconfigured using Linux VMs.
Post by h***@gmail.com
and instantly they get hundreds of replies while
Often, a Windows advocate posts on this group with one of the classic
arguments, and it's an opportunity to share how to respond to similar
comments in the marketplace.
Post by h***@gmail.com
the so called Linux advocates messages get 3 at best replies and those
three are the same three people talking to each other.
Generally, posting to the "home team" doesn't generate much of a
conversation. You get better responses and more interesting
conversations in this group when you make contriversial claims. For
example, if I claim that over 51% of all PCs are made "Linux Ready",
there will be responses saying that this is an absurd number, and
public statements by CEOs of OEMs suggesting that the number isn't
that far off (Dell saying "most" PCs were being sold with XP instead
of Vista).
Post by h***@gmail.com
Don't believe it?
You observations aren't that far off.
Post by h***@gmail.com
Go look for yourself.
I deleted your stats, but your observations aren't that far off.
Post by h***@gmail.com
Linux advocacy is deader than yesterday's news about Brittany Spears.
She bombed at the MTV awards in case you have not heard.
So did Vista :-D.

Linux Advocacy has spread. It used to be that this was the only venue
for getting the word out, that didn't end up getting filtered,
censored, or just disappearing almost instantly.

New technologies such as digg, blogs, and wikis have reduced the need
for repetitive discussions of the same old stuff. Publishers who
provide feedback are tending to keep pro-linux feedback longer.

There are also deeper pockets involved. Sam Palmisano, Michael Dell,
and Eric Schmidt are huge Linux advocates. When Sam says he wants to
have everyone at IBM using Linux as much as possible by the end of
2007, it's something that makes you take notice. Compared to that,
Rex Ballard, a long time advocate and IT Architect, just isn't as
interesting.

When Eric Schmidt says that Linux was critical to the success of
Google, which now is one of the most profitable media giants in the
industry, that's much more interesting than a guy who used to work as
a director of electronic distribution for Standard & Poor's or as
director of the Alliance Developer program for Dow Jones.

When the OWNERS and CEOs of 8,000 publishers say they are using Linux
and OSS for most of their online publications, that's much more
interesting than hearing from the guy who shared OSS with technicians
who worked for those 8,000 publishers back in 1997.

When the CEOs and CTOs of JPMC, SunTrust, Bank of America, Citibank,
and HSBC share that they are aggressively using Linux and OSS, that's
much more interesting than a guy who worked as a consultant for 20-30
banks and financial institutions, and introduced them to Linux and OSS
from 1996-2007.

Roy Shestowitz digs up those postings from the leaders, movers, and
shakers of $billion+ companies, government agencies, and shares them
in this group.

Microsoft has their "Fast Facts" site.

Linux has Roy on Google.
Post by h***@gmail.com
BTW here is that posters google stats, which are sicko if you ask me,
It's much easier to post 40 articles/day when all you need to do is
paste the link and a 1 paragraph quote. Roy has been a bit more
efficient lately by combining a number of articles on a theme. Roy
will often post links to a total of over 400 Linux related articles
per day.

I don't know if Roy is paid for his advocacy, but he probably should
be.
Au79
2007-09-17 05:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Good, that means that you can be off and out of here for good!
--
....................
http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html
elaich
2007-09-18 03:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Linux advocacy is deader than yesterday's news about Brittany Spears.
She bombed at the MTV awards in case you have not heard.
How ironic that a crossposting, Garbage Groops user is whining abut Linux
advocacy being dead.
--
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
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