Discussion:
What happened to Walmart's Linux boxes???
(too old to reply)
Bill
2006-05-16 02:43:10 UTC
Permalink
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.

Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
TheLetterK
2006-05-16 03:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
Illiteracy strikes again. Apparently you need to learn to read. Walmart
offers three different machines with either Xandros or Linspire pre-loaded.
Bill
2006-05-17 00:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheLetterK
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
Illiteracy strikes again. Apparently you need to learn to read. Walmart
offers three different machines with either Xandros or Linspire pre-loaded.
Many minutes of searching from for "walmart linux" from Google, and
"linux" and "linspire" on the Walmart site search engine yielded no
success. So maybe I didn't notice the little logos a later, more polite
responder pointed out. Therefore I am illiterate. And you are an asshole.

I'm glad others found what I did not, but you suck.
TheLetterK
2006-05-17 01:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by TheLetterK
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
Illiteracy strikes again. Apparently you need to learn to read. Walmart
offers three different machines with either Xandros or Linspire pre-loaded.
Many minutes of searching from for "walmart linux" from Google, and
"linux" and "linspire" on the Walmart site search engine yielded no
success.
So you didn't actually bother to look through the systems they offered? It
literally took less than five mintues for me to find those systems, and I
tried a google search beforehand (kept getting references to the laptop).
Post by Bill
So maybe I didn't notice the little logos a later, more polite
responder pointed out. Therefore I am illiterate. And you are an asshole.
Yes I am. I never claimed to be a nice person.
Bill
2006-05-17 03:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheLetterK
Post by Bill
Post by TheLetterK
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
Illiteracy strikes again. Apparently you need to learn to read. Walmart
offers three different machines with either Xandros or Linspire pre-loaded.
Many minutes of searching from for "walmart linux" from Google, and
"linux" and "linspire" on the Walmart site search engine yielded no
success.
So you didn't actually bother to look through the systems they offered? It
literally took less than five mintues for me to find those systems, and I
tried a google search beforehand (kept getting references to the laptop).
Well, of course I bothered to look through the systems they offered.
For quite a while, actually.

But now I have found that by selecting "all desktops", and then looking
carefully through all three pages thus provided, well, there they are on
the third page. Instead of doing this, before, I checked a bunch of the
descriptions and then looked elsewhere before I got to these. Can I
blame it on being burned out from my dead end day job?
Post by TheLetterK
Post by Bill
So maybe I didn't notice the little logos a later, more polite
responder pointed out. Therefore I am illiterate. And you are an asshole.
Yes I am. I never claimed to be a nice person.
And I never claimed to not be a goofball sometimes. ;)

I didn't see a laptop yet, though. I'm gonna see if I can find one
there, or not, without spazzing out.
linuxiac
2006-05-16 03:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon. All
Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
The Microtel computers are still offered for sale, but, no mention of an
OS to install on them!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/search-ng.gsp?search_constraint=3944&search_query=microtel&Continue.x=0&Continue.y=0&Continue=Find&ics=20&ico=0

Also, try the Microtel website?
[H]omer
2006-05-16 04:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by linuxiac
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was
selling with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the
web including Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate
this is happening now. Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked
about this phenomenon. All Walmart's computers I can find today
come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
The Microtel computers are still offered for sale, but, no mention of
an OS to install on them!
Yes they do:

"# Xandros SurfSide Linux

Additional software Includes:

# Fed up with malicious spyware, viruses and worms that can monitor your
activities, steal your credit information, cripple your machine, and
destroy your personal files? Xandros SurfSide Linux provides the
Carefree Internet choice:

# New! Xandros Firewall Wizard to prevent unauthorized access
# New! Xandros Antivirus to scan your files and quarantine malicious
intruders
# New! Encrypted home folder option to shield your personal files from
prying eyes
# New! Encrypted phone calls with Skype so that nobody can listen in on
your internet calls
# New! Secure access to your school or business PPTP virtual private
network (VPN)
# Restrict log-in access to specific days and times, for example, to
keep anyone from logging in at night or on weekends
# Can the spam by letting Thunderbird intelligently filter out likely
junk, so that you can get back to reading your mail
# Immunity from most attacks, since most spyware and viruses exploit the
vulnerabilities of Windows-based computers"

- http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
- http://www.xandros.com/products/home/desktopsurf/dsk_surf_intro.html
--
K.
/* values of ß will give rise to dom! */

Fedora Core release 4 (Stentz) on sky, running kernel 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4
05:16:07 up 3 days, 14:06, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.01
Roy Schestowitz
2006-05-16 04:41:42 UTC
Permalink
__/ [ [H]omer ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 05:22 \__
Post by [H]omer
Post by linuxiac
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was
selling with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the
web including Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate
this is happening now. Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked
about this phenomenon. All Walmart's computers I can find today
come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
The Microtel computers are still offered for sale, but, no mention of
an OS to install on them!
"# Xandros SurfSide Linux
# Fed up with malicious spyware, viruses and worms that can monitor your
activities, steal your credit information, cripple your machine, and
destroy your personal files? Xandros SurfSide Linux provides the
# New! Xandros Firewall Wizard to prevent unauthorized access
# New! Xandros Antivirus to scan your files and quarantine malicious
intruders
# New! Encrypted home folder option to shield your personal files from
prying eyes
# New! Encrypted phone calls with Skype so that nobody can listen in on
your internet calls
# New! Secure access to your school or business PPTP virtual private
network (VPN)
# Restrict log-in access to specific days and times, for example, to
keep anyone from logging in at night or on weekends
# Can the spam by letting Thunderbird intelligently filter out likely
junk, so that you can get back to reading your mail
# Immunity from most attacks, since most spyware and viruses exploit the
vulnerabilities of Windows-based computers"
- http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
- http://www.xandros.com/products/home/desktopsurf/dsk_surf_intro.html
So I understand that, to Xandros at least, it's all about privacy and
security. By the way, a fortnight ago I noticed that Xandros had bought an
AdWords spot for "linux" in Google. They reside alongside Microsoft's Get
the F***ing S**t Campaign. At least it is somewhat balanced now, after
almost 6 months.

Best wishes,

Roy
--
Roy S. Schestowitz | FUD: Not food for thought
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX ¦ PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
5:35am up 18 days 12:32, 8 users, load average: 0.85, 0.86, 0.73
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
DFS
2006-05-16 03:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was
selling with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web
including Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is
happening now. Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about
this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
I read something the other day that may account for it. Wal-Mart is
supposed to start selling PC components soon, so you can build your own
systems. Maybe they've dropped the preinstalls, and will start selling
Linux box sets?

Or maybe Bill Gates called the chairman of Wal-Mart and asked him to stop
carrying Linux altogether?
OK
2006-05-16 14:12:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was
selling with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web
including Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is
happening now. Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about
this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
I read something the other day that may account for it. Wal-Mart is
supposed to start selling PC components soon, so you can build your own
systems. Maybe they've dropped the preinstalls, and will start selling
Linux box sets?
Or maybe Bill Gates called the chairman of Wal-Mart and asked him to stop
carrying Linux altogether?
Dunno about Walmart, but all I can say is that Dell (France) does not
offer their entry-level Laptop with Linux anymore. Go to www.dell.fr
and click "Micro Portable Etudiants" under "Grand Public" - tree
offered, all running Microsoft Windows XP.

Then if you click "PC Portables", "Premiers Pas" on the menu, you'll
see that the entry-level 549 euro Inspiron 1300 is not offered with
Linux anymore, but Windows XP Home Edition.

No more Linux, why?
Linonut
2006-05-16 14:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by OK
Dunno about Walmart, but all I can say is that Dell (France) does not
offer their entry-level Laptop with Linux anymore. Go to www.dell.fr
and click "Micro Portable Etudiants" under "Grand Public" - tree
offered, all running Microsoft Windows XP.
Then if you click "PC Portables", "Premiers Pas" on the menu, you'll
see that the entry-level 549 euro Inspiron 1300 is not offered with
Linux anymore, but Windows XP Home Edition.
No more Linux, why?
You tell us, troll boy.
--
/\ STOP! This post has not passed Microsoft Logo testing to verify its
/ \ compatibility with Microsoft FUD. Microsoft strongly recommends
/ !! \ you stop reading this post, and consult a poster with Logo
/______\ certification. [ Continue Anyway ] [ STOP Reading ]
OK
2006-05-16 21:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by OK
Dunno about Walmart, but all I can say is that Dell (France) does not
offer their entry-level Laptop with Linux anymore. Go to www.dell.fr
and click "Micro Portable Etudiants" under "Grand Public" - tree
offered, all running Microsoft Windows XP.
Then if you click "PC Portables", "Premiers Pas" on the menu, you'll
see that the entry-level 549 euro Inspiron 1300 is not offered with
Linux anymore, but Windows XP Home Edition.
No more Linux, why?
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.

Deal with it.
flatfish+++
2006-05-16 22:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
Post by OK
Dunno about Walmart, but all I can say is that Dell (France) does not
offer their entry-level Laptop with Linux anymore. Go to www.dell.fr
and click "Micro Portable Etudiants" under "Grand Public" - tree
offered, all running Microsoft Windows XP.
Then if you click "PC Portables", "Premiers Pas" on the menu, you'll
see that the entry-level 549 euro Inspiron 1300 is not offered with
Linux anymore, but Windows XP Home Edition.
No more Linux, why?
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Linux is more than ready for the average Joe.
Sadly, average Joe is too entrenched with Windows to even give a hoot
about Linux.
I see it all the time.
--
flatfish+++
"Why do they call it a flatfish?"
Larry Qualig
2006-05-16 23:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
Post by OK
Dunno about Walmart, but all I can say is that Dell (France) does not
offer their entry-level Laptop with Linux anymore. Go to www.dell.fr
and click "Micro Portable Etudiants" under "Grand Public" - tree
offered, all running Microsoft Windows XP.
Then if you click "PC Portables", "Premiers Pas" on the menu, you'll
see that the entry-level 549 euro Inspiron 1300 is not offered with
Linux anymore, but Windows XP Home Edition.
No more Linux, why?
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Linux is more than ready for the average Joe.
Sadly, average Joe is too entrenched with Windows to even give a hoot
about Linux.
I see it all the time.
Your statement summarizes the current state of affairs remarkably well.


Perhaps one day things will change but this is how it is *today*.
rapskat
2006-05-17 01:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Post by OK
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Linux is more than ready for the average Joe.
Sadly, average Joe is too entrenched with Windows to even give a hoot
about Linux.
I see it all the time.
You're right, flatty. The problem is that it's a self-perpetuating cycle.
Until people start doing something to break the cycle then it's never
going to change.

The really ironic thing about this whole mess is that Linux and Windows
need each other. Just like Superman and Lex Luthor need each other, just
like Magneto and Prof. X need each other.

Each help to make the other better by keeping them in constant competition
with each other. You've got to admit, M$ has never been so much on its
toes as it is now, and Linux has great incentive for improvement. But
that's just the story now, next it will be someone else in the spotlight.
--
rapskat - 21:48:03 up 1 day, 21:09, 2 users, load average: 1.26, 0.73, 0.59
Chirag Shukla
2006-05-18 20:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by flatfish+++
Linux is more than ready for the average Joe.
Sadly, average Joe is too entrenched with Windows to even give a hoot
about Linux.
I see it all the time.
Its user's freedom to choose what they want and like. Being an advocate
of Linux myself, I have been unsuccessful in having some average users
move to Linux. They tried, and thought that they like Windows better -
at times, for no apparent reason. Suck it up. I use Windows too. I like
both Linux/Windows for various reasons, and none of these is my
"exclusive" OS.

Chirag Shukla.
M
2006-05-18 21:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chirag Shukla
Post by flatfish+++
Linux is more than ready for the average Joe.
Sadly, average Joe is too entrenched with Windows to even give a hoot
about Linux.
I see it all the time.
Its user's freedom to choose what they want and like.
A shame most OEM's don't see it that way. In the overwhelming majority of
cases when you buy a PC windows comes pre-installed whether you want it
not.

Thankfully I can buy mine from local computer suppliers and put what OS I
want on it.
Post by Chirag Shukla
Being an advocate
of Linux myself, I have been unsuccessful in having some average users
move to Linux. They tried, and thought that they like Windows better -
at times, for no apparent reason. Suck it up. I use Windows too. I like
both Linux/Windows for various reasons, and none of these is my
"exclusive" OS.
I wouldn't say 'no apparent reason', more likely that is what they are used
to, and everyone else around them uses, so they feel comfortable.
--
Regards,
M

http://za1012001.googlepages.com/home
Linonut
2006-05-17 11:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Ah, you have no answer.
--
/\ STOP! This post has not passed Microsoft Logo testing to verify its
/ \ compatibility with Microsoft FUD. Microsoft strongly recommends
/ !! \ you stop reading this post, and consult a poster with Logo
/______\ certification. [ Continue Anyway ] [ STOP Reading ]
OK
2006-05-17 20:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Ah, you have no answer.
No, I don't know why Dell dropped Linux. I have no idea. I can only
guess that it either caused mad problems, or generated negligible
sales, both of which are not good news for you believers...
Jim
2006-05-17 20:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
Post by OK
Post by Linonut
You tell us, troll boy.
Sorry, this is not trolling. Just verifiable facts. Dell France
dropped the Linux laptop you guys were soooooo.... bragging about only
a few months ago.
Deal with it.
Ah, you have no answer.
No, I don't know why Dell dropped Linux. I have no idea. I can only
guess that it either caused mad problems, or generated negligible
sales, both of which are not good news for you believers...
as suggested in an earlier post of mine, Dell dropped consumer Linux
gear because they already have a load of Windows licenses they need to
shift, that they've already paid (not much) for.People are afraid of
change, this works not only in Dell's favour when they're hawking new
gear, it also works in Microsoft's favour when moving mass quantities of
licenses such as the numbers they sell to boxshifters like Dell.
--
When all else fails...
Use a hammer.

http://dotware.co.uk

Some people are like Slinkies
They serve no particular purpose
But they bring a smile to your face
When you push them down the stairs.
Rick
2006-05-17 01:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is
happening now. Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about
this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
I read something the other day that may account for it. Wal-Mart is
supposed to start selling PC components soon, so you can build your own
systems. Maybe they've dropped the preinstalls, and will start selling
Linux box sets?
Or maybe Bill Gates called the chairman of Wal-Mart and asked him to stop
carrying Linux altogether?
or maybe...
<http://www.walmart.com/search/browse-ng.do?ref=125875.126125+500500.4294296003>
--
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>
Tim Smith
2006-05-16 04:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon. All
Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You probably missed them on Walmart's site because you were looking for
Linux. They don't mention Linux (or at least not prominently) but, rather,
mention the particular distributions they include: Linspire and Xandros.

You can find some by going to their desktops section, selecting to see all
brands, and then, where it lets you view by price group, pick the lowest
price group (there may be some in the other price groups, but I started low
and stopped when I found some), and scroll down, looking at the pictures.
You'll find some that have Linspire or Xandros logos near the picture.
--
--Tim Smith
John Bailo
2006-05-16 06:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
You "searched the web", huh?

Gee. I typed in Walmart+Linux in Google and the topmost link returned is:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=3951&lr=A&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3951

The second link is:

Wal-Mart debuts $498 Linux laptop
http://news.com.com/Wal-Mart+debuts+498+Linux+laptop/2100-1044_3-5498006.html

"Walmart.com and Linspire on Monday unveiled a Linux-based laptop priced at
$498.

The computer, dubbed Balance, comes loaded with the Linspire operating
system and the OpenOffice.org office suite, the companies said.

The companies said Balance is the lowest-priced laptop currently available
with an operating system and an office suite. It features a VIA C3 1-GHz
processor, 128MB RAM, a 30GB hard drive, a CD-ROM drive and a 14.1-inch
liquid crystal display. The software includes a built-in firewall to
protect users from viruses, spam and pop-ups.

The laptop launch comes as part of Wal-Mart's efforts to market low-priced
consumer electronics. The retailer has sold other inexpensive PCs and
notebooks, some of which come without operating systems.

The Balance laptop is available at Wal-Mart's Web site."
Post by Bill
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
--
Texeme Textcasting powers
http://www.you-read-it-here-first.com
Bill
2006-05-17 00:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bailo
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
You "searched the web", huh?
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=3951&lr=A&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3951
So, where is the linux-installed computer on that page?
Post by John Bailo
Wal-Mart debuts $498 Linux laptop
http://news.com.com/Wal-Mart+debuts+498+Linux+laptop/2100-1044_3-5498006.html
Article dated 1994. I said I found pages like that.

I'm getting mocked here for not finding what I was looking for, but
fortunately your response makes me look sharp by comparison.
Post by John Bailo
"Walmart.com and Linspire on Monday unveiled a Linux-based laptop priced at
$498.
The computer, dubbed Balance, comes loaded with the Linspire operating
system and the OpenOffice.org office suite, the companies said.
The companies said Balance is the lowest-priced laptop currently available
with an operating system and an office suite. It features a VIA C3 1-GHz
processor, 128MB RAM, a 30GB hard drive, a CD-ROM drive and a 14.1-inch
liquid crystal display. The software includes a built-in firewall to
protect users from viruses, spam and pop-ups.
The laptop launch comes as part of Wal-Mart's efforts to market low-priced
consumer electronics. The retailer has sold other inexpensive PCs and
notebooks, some of which come without operating systems.
The Balance laptop is available at Wal-Mart's Web site."
Post by Bill
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
Bill
2006-05-17 04:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Article dated 1994. I said I found pages like that.
duh. 2004 I mean, of course.
Tim Smith
2006-05-17 02:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bailo
Wal-Mart debuts $498 Linux laptop
http://news.com.com/Wal-Mart+debuts+498+Linux+laptop/2100-1044_3-5498006.html
Post by Bill
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
--
--Tim Smith
Sinister Midget
2006-05-16 06:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You're right. They're all gone!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910

They aren't selling one with no OS either.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2642763
--
Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an
institution?
-- Groucho Marx
John Bailo
2006-05-16 08:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sinister Midget
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You're right. They're all gone!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
They aren't selling one with no OS either.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2642763
They aren't selling the HoMedics Deluxe Antigravity Programmable Massage
Chair either:

http://www.walmart.com/massage-spa/massagers/homedics-deluxe-antigravity-massage-chair
--
Texeme Textcasting powers
http://www.you-read-it-here-first.com
Roy Schestowitz
2006-05-16 08:21:45 UTC
Permalink
__/ [ John Bailo ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 09:02 \__
Post by John Bailo
Post by Sinister Midget
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You're right. They're all gone!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
They aren't selling one with no OS either.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2642763
They aren't selling the HoMedics Deluxe Antigravity Programmable Massage
http://www.walmart.com/massage-spa/massagers/homedics-deluxe-antigravity-massage-chair

And yes, if you look closely, you will see them flying 'round the peripherals
of the Walmart complex. The legends speak of some giant Gorilla that has
come into existence when Xandros and Lispire first made it into the shop.

Roy
--
Roy S. Schestowitz The Holy Bible: http://www.gtk.org/documentation.html
http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer ¦ PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
9:15am up 18 days 16:12, 8 users, load average: 0.22, 0.26, 0.34
http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information
[H]omer
2006-05-16 09:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roy Schestowitz
__/ [ John Bailo ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 09:02 \__
Post by John Bailo
They aren't selling the HoMedics Deluxe Antigravity Programmable
http://www.walmart.com/massage-spa/massagers/homedics-deluxe-antigravity-massage-chair
And yes, if you look closely, you will see them flying 'round the
peripherals of the Walmart complex. The legends speak of some giant
Gorilla that has come into existence when Xandros and Lispire first
made it into the shop.
Is that the Gorilla they call Ballmer, by any chance?
--
K.
/* values of ß will give rise to dom! */

Fedora Core release 4 (Stentz) on sky, running kernel 2.6.16-1.2108_FC4
10:39:41 up 3 days, 19:30, 3 users, load average: 0.31, 0.14, 0.07
Roy Schestowitz
2006-05-16 13:39:49 UTC
Permalink
__/ [ [H]omer ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 10:41 \__
Post by [H]omer
Post by Roy Schestowitz
__/ [ John Bailo ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 09:02 \__
Post by John Bailo
They aren't selling the HoMedics Deluxe Antigravity Programmable
http://www.walmart.com/massage-spa/massagers/homedics-deluxe-antigravity-massage-chair
Post by [H]omer
Post by Roy Schestowitz
And yes, if you look closely, you will see them flying 'round the
peripherals of the Walmart complex. The legends speak of some giant
Gorilla that has come into existence when Xandros and Lispire first
made it into the shop.
Is that the Gorilla they call Ballmer, by any chance?
No, they call it Kong. *frown*
--
Roy S. Schestowitz | while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX ¦ PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
2:35pm up 18 days 21:32, 8 users, load average: 0.53, 0.59, 0.49
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
rapskat
2006-05-16 15:20:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by [H]omer
Post by Roy Schestowitz
__/ [ John Bailo ] on Tuesday 16 May 2006 09:02 \__
Post by John Bailo
They aren't selling the HoMedics Deluxe Antigravity Programmable
http://www.walmart.com/massage-spa/massagers/homedics-deluxe-antigravity-massage-chair
And yes, if you look closely, you will see them flying 'round the
peripherals of the Walmart complex. The legends speak of some giant
Gorilla that has come into existence when Xandros and Lispire first
made it into the shop.
Is that the Gorilla they call Ballmer, by any chance?
Probably. Whereever there are flying chairs, he's bound to be close by.

(Watch for sweat puddles)
--
rapskat - 11:19:51 up 4 days, 16:19, 2 users, load average: 0.14, 0.26, 0.29
"Windows XP will now attempt to blow chunks across your primary
partition. Press any key to continue..."
Bill
2006-05-17 00:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sinister Midget
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You're right. They're all gone!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
They aren't selling one with no OS either.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2642763
Well, I'm glad to be wrong about this. Maybe I need to improve my
internet search techniques, and spare myself some struggle.

But it is significant that I spent half an hour searching from google
(with "walmart linux", and from the walmart site (with "linux" and
"linspire") and did not find these pages. It says something about the
difficulty of finding these computers as well as my own limitations.
Sinister Midget
2006-05-17 02:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Sinister Midget
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
You're right. They're all gone!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762908
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762910
They aren't selling one with no OS either.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2642763
Well, I'm glad to be wrong about this. Maybe I need to improve my
internet search techniques, and spare myself some struggle.
But it is significant that I spent half an hour searching from google
(with "walmart linux", and from the walmart site (with "linux" and
"linspire") and did not find these pages. It says something about the
difficulty of finding these computers as well as my own limitations.
The problem is google keeps info around a long time, Walmart changes
their offering without a lot of notice, and mention of what's on them
isn't always in a searchable form when google nabs it.

I also searched for "linux" on their site. I came up with lots of
books, and a gaggle of things that have nothing to do with linux.

Also, don't be surprised if what they have on a page has at least 2
versions of the description. I looked at a machine one time that had 2
different sets of specs on the same page. I wrote and asked. They told
me which was right and apologized. But the same error was there several
months later.

Their machines are notably underperformers, so nobody should expect
gaming machine or server quality. For that matter it would be a good
idea to assume lack of acceleration for graphics. In that respect
they're doing linux a disservice IMHO.

But the machines are cheap and they work, which is what the way Walmart
sells them.
--
The largest living land mammal is the absent mind.
-- Captain Beefheart
Rick
2006-05-17 01:35:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
<http://www.walmart.com/search/browse-ng.do?ref=125875.126125+500500.4294296003>
--
Rick
<http://ricks-place.tripod.com/sound/2cents.wav>
Rex Ballard
2006-05-17 03:38:25 UTC
Permalink
That's a good question Bill. Perhaps Judge Kollar-Kotelly should be
asking Walmart, Staples, and Fryes' why they discontinued their Linux
machines.

If, while under oath, they are willing to give sworn testimony that
they just decided "There wasn't a market so we stopped selling them" -
then we can just assume that people would rather purchase a machine
with a Windows XP license, which they can use with VMWare, Xen, Bochs,
or WINE, than to purchase a "Linux Only" machine which has no Windows
License.

I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer to
do that?

If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable of
running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question might
be; "What is stopping you?".

If they point to specific clauses in the OEM agreement which force them
to exclude Linux, then I think we may have a case for contempt of
court.

And while we're at it, let's ask IBM, Lenovo, HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer,
and every other OEM.
Bill
2006-05-17 04:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
That's a good question Bill. Perhaps Judge Kollar-Kotelly should be
asking Walmart, Staples, and Fryes' why they discontinued their Linux
machines.
No, Rex, my question was not a particularly good one.

Thank you, though, for making me look bright by comparison.

I failed to find the Linux boxes on the Walmart website because I did
not search for them as carefully as I might have, which you would know
if you had bothered to read the previous responses to my o.p.
Post by Rex Ballard
If, while under oath, they are willing to give sworn testimony that
they just decided "There wasn't a market so we stopped selling them" -
then we can just assume that people would rather purchase a machine
with a Windows XP license, which they can use with VMWare, Xen, Bochs,
or WINE, than to purchase a "Linux Only" machine which has no Windows
License.
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer to
do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable of
running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question might
be; "What is stopping you?".
If they point to specific clauses in the OEM agreement which force them
to exclude Linux, then I think we may have a case for contempt of
court.
And while we're at it, let's ask IBM, Lenovo, HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer,
and every other OEM.
DFS
2006-05-17 04:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer
to do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable of
running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question might
be; "What is stopping you?".
At this point they will remind you:

a. of the exorbitant cost of installing and supporting two incompatible
operating systems
b. of the customer confusion it will definitely create
Post by Rex Ballard
If they point to specific clauses in the OEM agreement which force
them to exclude Linux, then I think we may have a case for contempt of
court.
And while we're at it, let's ask IBM, Lenovo, HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer,
and every other OEM.
Yes, why don't you? Why haven't you? It's all you Linux weirdos can talk
about - so why hasn't a single one of you pursued the "illegal, restrictive
OEM contracts" accusations any further than the end of your nose?

Two reasons:

1) it will be a waste of your money

2) you're deathly afraid it will confirm what you already suspect but try to
cover up with macho cola posturing: the OEMs sell what they want to sell.

Why is it so freakin' hard to understand that basic market demand will
result in a proliferation of Linux OEM and retail vendors? All that has to
happen is for enough customers to ask for (and actually buy when they
appear) Linux machines.
amosf © Tim Fairchild
2006-05-17 05:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer
to do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable of
running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question might
be; "What is stopping you?".
a. of the exorbitant cost of installing and supporting two incompatible
operating systems
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
Post by DFS
b. of the customer confusion it will definitely create
Yep. How come the free one works better?
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
If they point to specific clauses in the OEM agreement which force
them to exclude Linux, then I think we may have a case for contempt of
court.
And while we're at it, let's ask IBM, Lenovo, HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer,
and every other OEM.
Yes, why don't you? Why haven't you? It's all you Linux weirdos can talk
about - so why hasn't a single one of you pursued the "illegal,
restrictive OEM contracts" accusations any further than the end of your
nose?
1) it will be a waste of your money
2) you're deathly afraid it will confirm what you already suspect but try
to cover up with macho cola posturing: the OEMs sell what they want to
sell.
Why is it so freakin' hard to understand that basic market demand will
result in a proliferation of Linux OEM and retail vendors? All that has
to happen is for enough customers to ask for (and actually buy when they
appear) Linux machines.
DFS
2006-05-17 15:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer
to do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable
of running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question
might be; "What is stopping you?".
a. of the exorbitant cost of installing and supporting two
incompatible operating systems
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose. Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low as $99
($0 if you pirate).

But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost; what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access to
the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
b. of the customer confusion it will definitely create
Yep. How come the free one works better?
That's just a myth. In reality, they can't give it away.
Rick
2006-05-17 16:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer
to do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable
of running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question
might be; "What is stopping you?".
a. of the exorbitant cost of installing and supporting two
incompatible operating systems
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose.
... except for people, like me, that pays for retail box sets.
Post by DFS
Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low as $99
($0 if you pirate).
So, you're advocating piracy again?
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
No, it isn't. Windows is a cost.
Post by DFS
what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access to
the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Yup.. I don't have to spend time fighting viruses and malware,
and I run some of the best software in the world... that's why I
use Linux based software and OSS.
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
b. of the customer confusion it will definitely create
Yep. How come the free one works better?
That's just a myth. In reality, they can't give it away.
In reality, you're a liar.
--
Rick
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-22 21:55:31 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low as $99
($0 if you pirate).
So, you're advocating piracy again?
Windows - it's so cheap and so valuable that you have to pirate it!

Umm... hmm. If it's so cheap and so valuable, why would it ever be
pirated? This makes no sense. Typically people pirate things they
either can't afford - i.e. cost too damned much - or which they regard
as being not worth the price - that is, cost more than the perceived
value.

Given the frequency with which Windows is pirated, this suggests it is
actually overpriced junk, not reasonably priced and with a cost matching
its perceived value.
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
No, it isn't. Windows is a cost.
In purchase, in care and feeding, in maintenance. It costs a lot more,
on average, to keep a Windows box working properly than a non-Windows
box.
Post by Rick
Yup.. I don't have to spend time fighting viruses and malware,
and I run some of the best software in the world... that's why I
use Linux based software and OSS.
Damn straight. OS and apps which work without all the hand-holding, do
their jobs quietly and efficiently, and just do the right thing, day in
and day out.
DFS
2006-05-23 03:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low
as $99 ($0 if you pirate).
So, you're advocating piracy again?
When did I ever?
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Windows - it's so cheap and so valuable that you have to pirate it!
Windows: worth the risk of stealing
Linux: can't be given away
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Umm... hmm. If it's so cheap and so valuable, why would it ever be
pirated? This makes no sense. Typically people pirate things they
either can't afford - i.e. cost too damned much - or which they regard
as being not worth the price - that is, cost more than the perceived
value.
Given the frequency with which Windows is pirated, this suggests it is
actually overpriced junk, not reasonably priced and with a cost
matching its perceived value.
Even the full version of Windows OS at full retail is a deal considering
the universe of apps, games and hardware you have access to.
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux
"advocate" it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
No, it isn't. Windows is a cost.
Linux is a pain that "costs" much, much more than Windows. Worse than the
hassle is you still cannot get the same excellent computing/gaming/hardware
experiences with
Linux that are so easy to find with Windows.
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
In purchase, in care and feeding, in maintenance. It costs a lot
more, on average, to keep a Windows box working properly than a
non-Windows box.
Post by Rick
Yup.. I don't have to spend time fighting viruses and malware,
Why would you have to? Run your Windows box behind a router w/ firewall,
and don't click on email links which you already know contain viruses, just
so you can pretend to get infected, so you can run to cola and lie and bitch
about Windows.
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by Rick
and I run some of the best software in the world... that's why I
use Linux based software and OSS.
Damn straight. OS and apps which work without all the hand-holding, do
their jobs quietly and efficiently, and just do the right thing, day
in and day out.
That's my experience with Windows. Linux, on the other hand, is nothing BUT
hand-holding.
Rick
2006-05-23 03:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low as
$99 ($0 if you pirate).
So, you're advocating piracy again?
When did I ever?
You do below ...
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Windows - it's so cheap and so valuable that you have to pirate it!
Windows: worth the risk of stealing
^^^^ and you advocate piracy.
Post by DFS
Linux: can't be given away
you're a liar.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Umm... hmm. If it's so cheap and so valuable, why would it ever be
pirated? This makes no sense. Typically people pirate things they
either can't afford - i.e. cost too damned much - or which they regard
as being not worth the price - that is, cost more than the perceived
value.
Given the frequency with which Windows is pirated, this suggests it is
actually overpriced junk, not reasonably priced and with a cost matching
its perceived value.
Even the full version of Windows OS at full retail is a deal considering
the universe of apps, games and hardware you have access to.
AHAH ahah HAH ahhaha HAHahah HAH ahah HAHha ahAHA ...

Oh, you're serious... how sad.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by Rick
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux
"advocate" it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
No, it isn't. Windows is a cost.
Linux is a pain that "costs" much, much more than Windows.
You're a liar.
Post by DFS
Worse than the
hassle is you still cannot get the same excellent
computing/gaming/hardware experiences with
Linux that are so easy to find with Windows.
I have many more hassles with windows.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
In purchase, in care and feeding, in maintenance. It costs a lot more,
on average, to keep a Windows box working properly than a non-Windows
box.
Post by Rick
Yup.. I don't have to spend time fighting viruses and malware,
Why would you have to? Run your Windows box behind a router w/ firewall,
and don't click on email links which you already know contain viruses,
just so you can pretend to get infected, so you can run to cola and lie
and bitch about Windows.
That's funny, coming from a liar like you.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Post by Rick
and I run some of the best software in the world... that's why I use
Linux based software and OSS.
Damn straight. OS and apps which work without all the hand-holding, do
their jobs quietly and efficiently, and just do the right thing, day in
and day out.
That's my experience with Windows. Linux, on the other hand, is nothing
BUT hand-holding.
You're a liar.
--
Rick
Linonut
2006-05-17 17:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly. I had a fun one
today, though it may be an Adobe problem, not an XP problem. I
downloaded Acrobat Reader (7.0.7) and ran the installer. It crashed,
with a numeric error message. Proprietary slopware!

Of course, the reason I had to download Adobe for Windows in the first
place was this: needed to fill out a PDF form. Adobe for Linux
installed and works fine, but you have to print out the filled-out form,
you cannot save the changes. But CUPS no longer can connect properly to
our Win-2000-hosted printer. I have no idea why. It's the only problem
I've ever had with Linux that I've not been able to ultimately solve.
I'd been printing along happily for months, then did some various
upgrades and finagling, now, b0rken! OSS slopware!
Post by DFS
what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access to
the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Best software? Feature-wise, perhaps. Bug-wise? No way in hell.

Best games? Maybe, but many people get more bang from a dedicated
game box.

Hardware? You have to remember that, as powerful as they are now, pee
cees are still low-end computers.
--
/\ STOP! This post has not passed Microsoft Logo testing to verify its
/ \ compatibility with Microsoft FUD. Microsoft strongly recommends
/ !! \ you stop reading this post, and consult a poster with Logo
/______\ certification. [ Continue Anyway ] [ STOP Reading ]
DFS
2006-05-18 03:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux
"advocate" it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly.
XP does work properly - that's why every big company in the world runs it
almost exclusively on their desktops.

I spend half-a-day a week at a client site running XP. It runs fine -
faster than my home system. It has never crashed.
Post by Linonut
I had a fun
one today, though it may be an Adobe problem, not an XP problem. I
downloaded Acrobat Reader (7.0.7) and ran the installer. It crashed,
with a numeric error message. Proprietary slopware!
It just installed fine on my WinServer2003 system. Sure seems heavyweight
(63mb) just to read .pdf files, though.
Post by Linonut
Of course, the reason I had to download Adobe for Windows in the first
place was this: needed to fill out a PDF form. Adobe for Linux
installed and works fine, but you have to print out the filled-out
form, you cannot save the changes. But CUPS no longer can connect
properly to our Win-2000-hosted printer. I have no idea why. It's
the only problem I've ever had with Linux that I've not been able to
ultimately solve. I'd been printing along happily for months, then
did some various upgrades and finagling, now, b0rken! OSS slopware!
slopware? You forgot the fallback position: "Linux just works... once it's
configured properly."
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy
access to the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Best software? Feature-wise, perhaps. Bug-wise? No way in hell.
All software has bugs, of course.
Post by Linonut
Best games? Maybe, but many people get more bang from a dedicated
game box.
The XBox 360 looked good when I saw it, but a Windows PC with a good
graphics card and decent CPU is the best gaming platform available: besides
the enormous list of titles, it has the best combination of speed, graphics
and disk size (for installing and storing game files). Plus you can easily
find free online game servers all over the world, so you can multiplay
anytime.
Post by Linonut
Hardware? You have to remember that, as powerful as they are now, pee
cees are still low-end computers.
Only in cost. In processing power and graphics performance they exceed the
supercomputers of the [fairly] recent past.
Linonut
2006-05-18 14:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux
"advocate" it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly.
XP does work properly - that's why every big company in the world runs it
almost exclusively on their desktops.
I spend half-a-day a week at a client site running XP. It runs fine -
faster than my home system. It has never crashed.
I spend most of my working day on XP. You've seen some of the anecdotes
I've posted.

My XP has never crashed. But it and the Microsoft and Rational
applications that run on it are a never-ending source of problems.
Post by DFS
It just installed fine on my WinServer2003 system. Sure seems heavyweight
(63mb) just to read .pdf files, though.
As far as I can tell, it's the only way to modify a form and print it.
I tried pdftk (PDF toolkit), but couldn't get it to generate a good FDF
file.
Post by DFS
slopware? You forgot the fallback position: "Linux just works... once it's
configured properly."
Actually, for all I know, it could be some problem in the Win 2000
printer sharing.

More likely, the upgrade to Samba fixed something for newer versions of
CIFS/SMB that now doesn't work with the older version of CIFS/SMB.
Post by DFS
Post by Linonut
Best software? Feature-wise, perhaps. Bug-wise? No way in hell.
All software has bugs, of course.
Indeed!
Post by DFS
Post by Linonut
Hardware? You have to remember that, as powerful as they are now, pee
cees are still low-end computers.
Only in cost. In processing power and graphics performance they exceed the
supercomputers of the [fairly] recent past.
I think Seymour would be laughing at you:

http://www.cray.com/

Still, it is nice to have a personal computer that is fairly powerful.
--
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Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-22 22:13:42 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by DFS
Post by Linonut
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly.
XP does work properly
Client calls me up because XP, on their laptop, won't boot. Not
normally, not in safe mode. It won't even boot off the recovery CD. It
is _dead_. Completely.

Linux, however, booted fine, allowed their data to be copied across the
LAN, saving them - literally - tens of thousands of dollars in potential
losses.

Kind of funny, actually. The very reason they booted the laptop in the
first place, upon returning to the main office, was to back up the data.
Nope, sorry, can't let that happen.

Nice to know there's OSen around that actually work, to save Windows'
bacon, day in and day out.

Just had another interesting one. Client calls with a display problem;
somehow she's managed to set her theme to black text on a black
background. While she can see icons and outlines of Windows, she
_can't_ see menu entries, icon titles, or other text which she could use
to solve the problem.

Booting normally doesn't help. Nor does safe mode. Nor does VGA mode.
She could, obviously, boot to the command prompt and presumably see what
she's doing... but her theme, that's not in something sensible like,
say, /home/user/themes/current_theme now is it? Or even in a config
file containing several other options?

As far as she can tell, she's screwed. Of course, had Windows used a
sensible scheme for storing data, configs, etc, it would be easy to boot
up in text mode, edit the setting and be done with it.

Hmm... lessee...

While this version of Windows is a bit older, it nevertheless shows the
inconsistency of Windows. It's a dedicated machine, sealed up in a
hard-shell case, for use in the field - i.e. not one prone to having the
usual issues with IE and the like. Runs Win95. For no apparent reason,
it has recently decided to refuse to pull DHCP leases across the
network, despite the fact that if assigned a static IP, it can
communicate. It just randomly decided not to work properly anymore.

The box I'm on right now, using XP, started failing several times a day,
locking up hard, after installing ZoneAlarm. Removing ZA, the system is
vastly more stable - but still locks up once a day, on average.

Win2K Server + IIS. Despite MS providing a "migration tool" which
nominally allows you to migrate IIS sites from one server to another
with relative ease, the software simply does not work on our IIS
install. I suspect this may be because the "default web site", so
common on IIS systems, simply does not exist on this server, and all the
administrative stuff which poses such a potential security risk has been
disabled, for obvious reasons. So it appears to be a choice between
relative security, and broken tools. Brilliant design, that.

Unlike Linux, XP has virtually no logging capability. While you can log
some things, most of them are not terribly useful. This means that if
you do run into problems, there's virtually no way to determine _why_,
as a long sequence of "Unexpected restart" log entries in one system
showed. Yes, I _know_ there was an unexpected restart; how about
logging something _useful_ so I can track down _why_ there was an
unexpected restart? No, useful logging is too much to ask for in
Windows.

Yeah, "XP does work properly", indeed. Problem is, it's version of
"properly" is about on a par with an etch-a-sketch.
DFS
2006-05-23 05:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by DFS
Post by Linonut
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly.
XP does work properly
Client calls me up because XP, on their laptop, won't boot. Not
normally, not in safe mode. It won't even boot off the recovery CD.
It is _dead_. Completely.
Last week I tried to boot a PCLinuxOS LiveCD I burned in a DVD player. The
boot screen came up, I hit enter, the PCLinuxOS logo appeared, the progress
meter started... working, working...then at about 20% just sat there. I
waited for several minutes, hit Esc to go into verbose mode, and finally a
screen full of junk came back, and the last message was something like
"unable to mount loopback filesystem. tty error."

And there it sat, another borked, useless Linux system: no keyboard, no
mouse. Nothing to do but hard boot. Same issue on all DVD players I tried
to boot from.

Linux just works!
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Linux, however, booted fine, allowed their data to be copied across
the LAN, saving them - literally - tens of thousands of dollars in
potential losses.
Kind of funny, actually. The very reason they booted the laptop in the
first place, upon returning to the main office, was to back up the
data. Nope, sorry, can't let that happen.
Nice to know there's OSen around that actually work, to save Windows'
bacon, day in and day out.
"Hello, I have a problem booting linux. Neither lilo nor grub will boot
linux on my machine, while they are able to boot windows."

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3581
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Just had another interesting one. Client calls with a display
problem; somehow she's managed to set her theme to black text on a
black background. While she can see icons and outlines of Windows,
she _can't_ see menu entries, icon titles, or other text which she
could use to solve the problem.
Booting normally doesn't help. Nor does safe mode. Nor does VGA
mode. She could, obviously, boot to the command prompt and presumably
see what she's doing... but her theme, that's not in something
sensible like, say, /home/user/themes/current_theme now is it? Or
even in a config file containing several other options?
As far as she can tell, she's screwed. Of course, had Windows used a
sensible scheme for storing data, configs, etc,
You mean like in C:\WINDOWS\Resources\Themes?
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
it would be easy to boot up in text mode, edit
the setting and be done with it.
You mean like searching the Registry (HKEY_USERS) for 'Themes', which will
take you to a place like this

HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-2038549532-1903175307-1729570486-500\Software\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Themes\LastTheme

from where you can edit/reset the ThemeFile key to read
"%SystemRoot%\resources\Themes\Windows Classic.theme"

Is that what you mean?

(I don't understand something. You continually call me stupid, but I can
easily find and fix this stuff (or at least get on the right path)? Why
can't you?)
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Hmm... lessee...
While this version of Windows is a bit older, it nevertheless shows
the inconsistency of Windows. It's a dedicated machine, sealed up in
a hard-shell case, for use in the field - i.e. not one prone to
having the usual issues with IE and the like. Runs Win95. For no
apparent reason, it has recently decided to refuse to pull DHCP
leases across the network, despite the fact that if assigned a static
IP, it can communicate. It just randomly decided not to work
properly anymore.
"GRUB suddenly won't load up Linux... I don't know what to do. ...."

http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/suse-linux-help/22928-grub-suddenly-wont-load-up-linux-i-dont-know-what-do.html
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
The box I'm on right now, using XP, started failing several times a
day, locking up hard, after installing ZoneAlarm. Removing ZA, the
system is vastly more stable - but still locks up once a day, on
average.
Interesting. I ran ZoneAlarm off and on for years, versions 2-4, on Windows
2000 and 2003, and never had a single problem with it locking my system.
Why do you?
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Win2K Server + IIS. Despite MS providing a "migration tool" which
nominally allows you to migrate IIS sites from one server to another
with relative ease, the software simply does not work on our IIS
install. I suspect this may be because the "default web site", so
common on IIS systems, simply does not exist on this server, and all
the administrative stuff which poses such a potential security risk
has been disabled, for obvious reasons. So it appears to be a choice
between relative security, and broken tools. Brilliant design, that.
The clue to your difficulties is found in the statement "on our IIS
install."
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Unlike Linux, XP has virtually no logging capability. While you can
log some things, most of them are not terribly useful. This means
that if you do run into problems, there's virtually no way to
determine _why_, as a long sequence of "Unexpected restart" log
entries in one system showed. Yes, I _know_ there was an unexpected
restart; how about logging something _useful_ so I can track down
_why_ there was an unexpected restart? No, useful logging is too
much to ask for in Windows.
XP logs all kinds of useful messages, most of which seem to be more
intelligible than Linux messages.
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Yeah, "XP does work properly", indeed. Problem is, it's version of
"properly" is about on a par with an etch-a-sketch.
Isn't it a hoot that the world runs on such a "toy" system, but desktop
Linux is virtually ignored? Vista has seen one delay after another, yet
nobody can [with a straight face] recommend Linux as a replacement.

Why can't you give Linux away? Why do shelves full of $1.99 Suse distros
sit on the endcap at MicroCenter for weeks, and hardly move? Why did the
Chinese waiter I asked about Linux/OpenOffice say he would rather pirate
Windows/MS Office?

What does all that say about Linux?
Rick
2006-05-23 10:51:24 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 May 2006 01:11:10 -0400, DFS wrote:

(snip)
Post by DFS
it would be easy to boot up in text mode, edit the setting and be done
with it.
You mean like searching the Registry (HKEY_USERS) for 'Themes', which will
take you to a place like this
HKEY_USERS\S-1-5-21-2038549532-1903175307-1729570486-500\Software\Microsoft\
Windows\CurrentVersion\Themes\LastTheme
from where you can edit/reset the ThemeFile key to read
"%SystemRoot%\resources\Themes\Windows Classic.theme"
Is that what you mean?
(I don't understand something. You continually call me stupid, but I can
easily find and fix this stuff (or at least get on the right path)? Why
can't you?)
... editing text config files.. how arcane.


(snip)
Post by DFS
Why can't you give Linux away?
I have given many Linux CDs away. And many of the people I gave the CDs
to are still using Linux. So, you are shown to be a liar once more.
Post by DFS
Why do shelves full of $1.99 Suse distros
sit on the endcap at MicroCenter for weeks, and hardly move?
Dunno. Why do they boxed sets sell?
Post by DFS
Why did the
Chinese waiter I asked about Linux/OpenOffice say he would rather pirate
Windows/MS Office?
What does all that say about Linux?
.. there are a lot of people that don't know any better, and a lot of
pirating liars like you.... ?
--
Rick
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-23 17:56:15 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by DFS
Last week I tried to boot a PCLinuxOS LiveCD I burned in a DVD player. The
boot screen came up, I hit enter, the PCLinuxOS logo appeared, the progress
meter started... working, working...then at about 20% just sat there. I
waited for several minutes, hit Esc to go into verbose mode, and finally a
screen full of junk came back, and the last message was something like
"unable to mount loopback filesystem. tty error."
Should not be happening; I would suspect, as the first culprit, a bad
download. You _did_ check the md5sums, right? Could also be a bad burn,
bad disc, any number of things having nothing to do with the OS. I've had
Windows CDs which did much the same thing; cleaning, reseating, etc,
sometimes are sufficient to solve the problem.

What you're describing _could_ be an installer issue, or it _could_ be
any of a hundred other things.
Post by DFS
And there it sat, another borked, useless Linux system: no keyboard, no
mouse. Nothing to do but hard boot. Same issue on all DVD players I
tried to boot from.
Linux just works!
Since you haven't demonstrated that the issue was in any way related to
Linux, your comments here just make you look like a clueless newbie,
unable to grasp concepts everyone else manages to grasp, such as burns can
fail, discs can be mis-seated, etc.
Post by DFS
"Hello, I have a problem booting linux. Neither lilo nor grub will boot
linux on my machine, while they are able to boot windows."
That's nice. You experienced this yourself, did you? I'll stick to the
issues _I_ and _my_ clients have experienced. All the endless failures of
Windows on their machines, in a variety of amusing ways.

The machine upstairs which, over the period of a couple of weeks, slowed
down more and more and more, to the point that simply opening OE took
close to a minute. (And he bitches about 12 seconds for OpenOffice.
Yeesh.)

The machine at my buddy's place which locks up, on average, once a day,
for no apparent reason. The same one which, when it had a common and
well-known firewall app installed, locked up many times per day.

The Win2K server I used to run which was rock solid, until I applied a
service pack - at which point it would spontaneously reboot _every_
_single_ _day_. With, of course, no actually useful logging to determine
why; just an endless series of "Unexpected restart" messages.

The Windows web server machine here at the office - set up, I'll note, by
someone who does *nothing* but Windows administration - which requires
that you restart IIS anywhere from about once a week to several times a
day, because ASP functionality randomly stops working.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
As far as she can tell, she's screwed. Of course, had Windows used a
sensible scheme for storing data, configs, etc,
You mean like in C:\WINDOWS\Resources\Themes?
Exactly. Now, which one of those is the one specific to the user account
on the machine? I rather suspect those would be system-wide. Where's
_her_ settings? As it is, she can't do jack with system-level settings.
Post by DFS
You mean like searching the Registry (HKEY_USERS) for 'Themes', which
will take you to a place like this
Hey, look, a system-level setting. While we're at it, though... could you
kindly show me the nice GUI-based admin tool which allows you to do this
searching, despite the fact that the GUI is currently black-on-black?
Yes, it *has* to be GUI; after all, the Wintrolls keep telling us that
CLI tools are all outdated and outmoded, so unless you're going to tell us
that every Wintroll who has ever complained about CLI tools is a stupid
childish whiny little wanker, no CLI tools allowed.
Post by DFS
from where you can edit/reset the ThemeFile key to read
"%SystemRoot%\resources\Themes\Windows Classic.theme"
Is that what you mean?
Nope.
Post by DFS
(I don't understand something. You continually call me stupid, but I
can easily find and fix this stuff (or at least get on the right path)?
Why can't you?)
Why can't _I_? I wasn't the one looking for this stuff. She was. And
I'll note you're violating standard Wintroll practice; you *cannot* use
CLI tools; those are "1960's" technology, unacceptable. I seem to recall
you YOURSELF have whined about CLI tools. So only GUI tools need apply.
The ones with the black-on-black scheme. Carry on.

Can't have it both ways, you know. Telling us CLI apps are crap, then
relying on them to fix things would be hypocritical. So only GUI apps
need apply. Do feel free to try again, though.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
While this version of Windows is a bit older, it nevertheless shows the
inconsistency of Windows. It's a dedicated machine, sealed up in a
hard-shell case, for use in the field - i.e. not one prone to having
the usual issues with IE and the like. Runs Win95. For no apparent
reason, it has recently decided to refuse to pull DHCP leases across
the network, despite the fact that if assigned a static IP, it can
communicate. It just randomly decided not to work properly anymore.
"GRUB suddenly won't load up Linux... I don't know what to do. ...."
Really? Why are *you* having issues with grub? Or is this one of your
clients? No, it's neither, is it? Funny that; I can roll out issue after
issue after issue with Windows on systems I have to use, or support, or
get calls for. You, by contrast, have to hit the web to see the collected
problems of several million users. Golly gee, imagine that, in millions
of systems, some people have problems. What a *staggering* revelation,
there, DFS.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
The box I'm on right now, using XP, started failing several times a
day, locking up hard, after installing ZoneAlarm. Removing ZA, the
system is vastly more stable - but still locks up once a day, on
average.
Interesting. I ran ZoneAlarm off and on for years, versions 2-4, on
Windows 2000 and 2003, and never had a single problem with it locking my
system. Why do you?
I don't. He does. Try to learn to read. His machine. His problem. I
took out ZA, the system went back to a more acceptable locking up oncee a
day.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Win2K Server + IIS. Despite MS providing a "migration tool" which
nominally allows you to migrate IIS sites from one server to another
with relative ease, the software simply does not work on our IIS
install. I suspect this may be because the "default web site", so
common on IIS systems, simply does not exist on this server, and all
the administrative stuff which poses such a potential security risk has
been disabled, for obvious reasons. So it appears to be a choice
between relative security, and broken tools. Brilliant design, that.
The clue to your difficulties is found in the statement "on our IIS
install."
The one set up by an MS-certified Windows twonk. Yes, and?
Post by DFS
XP logs all kinds of useful messages
Really? Good. So show me where to turn them on. We'll start with the
simple ones, such as the boot-time logging of the hardware state. Also
any filesystem logging, such as recording the current state - clean,
dirty, inconsistent.
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Yeah, "XP does work properly", indeed. Problem is, it's version of
"properly" is about on a par with an etch-a-sketch.
Isn't it a hoot that the world runs on such a "toy" system, but desktop
Linux is virtually ignored?
Nope. The power of monopoly. A wonderful thing - for the monopolist.
What I find funny is MS constantly losing ground server-side, if their OS
is so good. And their virtual non-existence in high-end computing, if
their OS is so good. And their ongoing loss of seats to the competition,
if their OS is so good. And the growing number of people and companies -
IBM for example - who have flatly said they are not going to migrate to
the new version... funny, if the OS is so good.
Post by DFS
Vista has seen one delay after another, yet
nobody can [with a straight face] recommend Linux as a replacement.
Why not? It's here, now, today, and working. The fact _you_ don't like
it doesn't change that one iota.
Post by DFS
Why can't you give Linux away?
You can. You can also sell it. Imagine that, people are actually doing
what DFS says can't be done.
Post by DFS
Why do shelves full of $1.99 Suse
distros sit on the endcap at MicroCenter for weeks, and hardly move?
Dunno. You tell me. At a guess, I'd think it's probably to do with
simple name recognition; most non-geeks simply don't know what "Suse" is,
so aren't interested; most geeks, by contrast, already _have_ their distro
of choice - and are very likely getting more recent versions of Suse (if
they want Suse) than are available in the bins.
Post by DFS
Why did the Chinese waiter I asked about Linux/OpenOffice say he would
rather pirate Windows/MS Office?
Because he's familiar with it, probably.
Post by DFS
What does all that say about Linux?
That it doesn't need illegal practices to continue taking on MS, chipping
away at it day after day? That despite MS's repeated monopoly abuse and
other lock-in tactics, Linux use _still_ continues to grow, so it must be
doing something right?
JEDIDIAH
2006-05-18 13:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Linonut
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Post by Linonut
Not hard at all. Just try getting XP to work properly. I had a fun one
today, though it may be an Adobe problem, not an XP problem. I
downloaded Acrobat Reader (7.0.7) and ran the installer. It crashed,
with a numeric error message. Proprietary slopware!
[deletia]
--
Oracle... can't live with it... |||
/ | \
can't just replace it with postgres...

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The Ghost In The Machine
2006-05-18 17:00:02 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
<***@nomad.mishnet>
wrote
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?

One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.

<advocacy>
Or one can just download a variant of Linux (or purchase a disk) and be
done with it. :-) (This is a superior solution for many.)
</advocacy>

Replacement of a machine shouldn't really be necessary although if
Moore's law doesn't stop soon we'll eventually all have machines
that glow in the dark (600 THz) and boil tungsten (5828 K). :-)
(Rhenium has the highest boiling point at 5869K, but is relatively
unknown.)

[rest snipped]
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net -- insert random hot machine here
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
AZ Nomad
2006-05-18 17:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
She probably felt that twenty hours of her time was worth more than $300.
JEDIDIAH
2006-05-18 19:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
She probably felt that twenty hours of her time was worth more than $300.
No she's just one of those people that expects to treat a PC
as if it were an appliance. She is incapable of grasping the reasons
why this cannot be the case for a machine running Windows. She not nearly
technical enough to be comfortable with using anything other than what
"everyone else uses". To her, even using a Macintosh would be remarkably
scary.
--
Truth is irrelevant as long as the predictions are good. |||
/ | \
Jordan Abel
2006-05-18 20:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
She probably felt that twenty hours of her time was worth more than $300.
No she's just one of those people that expects to treat a PC
as if it were an appliance. She is incapable of grasping the reasons
why this cannot be the case for a machine running Windows. She not nearly
technical enough to be comfortable with using anything other than what
"everyone else uses". To her, even using a Macintosh would be remarkably
scary.
If she wants it to be an appliance say you're getting her a different
brand of appliance because this kind is prone to breakdowns - you could
even get her a new computer to go with the new OS (say, a mac)
JEDIDIAH
2006-05-19 14:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jordan Abel
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
She probably felt that twenty hours of her time was worth more than $300.
No she's just one of those people that expects to treat a PC
as if it were an appliance. She is incapable of grasping the reasons
why this cannot be the case for a machine running Windows. She not nearly
technical enough to be comfortable with using anything other than what
"everyone else uses". To her, even using a Macintosh would be remarkably
scary.
If she wants it to be an appliance say you're getting her a different
brand of appliance because this kind is prone to breakdowns - you could
even get her a new computer to go with the new OS (say, a mac)
Did you even bother to READ my post?
--
Negligence will never equal intent, no matter how you
attempt to distort reality to do so. This is what separates |||
the real butchers from average Joes (or Fritzes) caught up in / | \
events not in their control.
Jordan Abel
2006-05-19 23:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by Jordan Abel
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by AZ Nomad
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
She probably felt that twenty hours of her time was worth more than $300.
No she's just one of those people that expects to treat a PC
as if it were an appliance. She is incapable of grasping the reasons
why this cannot be the case for a machine running Windows. She not nearly
technical enough to be comfortable with using anything other than what
"everyone else uses". To her, even using a Macintosh would be remarkably
scary.
If she wants it to be an appliance say you're getting her a different
brand of appliance because this kind is prone to breakdowns - you could
even get her a new computer to go with the new OS (say, a mac)
Did you even bother to READ my post?
You were the one saying she wants to treat it as if it were an appliance
- I was just saying that just because you want an appliance doesn't mean
you have to buy from the biggest appliance manufacturer

it's called "running with the analogy". Wanting to treat it like an
appliance is NOT a sufficient basis for having to use windows.

And, of course, if she wants to treat it as if it were an appliance, the
logical solution is to get one that is actually an appliance - i don't
know if any exist now, there were a bunch in the early 2000s.
Rex Ballard
2006-05-20 00:05:39 UTC
Permalink
The irony is that Linux powers a number of appliances.

Routers, WiFi hubs, cable modems, cable tuners, DVRs, all powered by
forms of Linux.

Add the Unix appliances, and variants such as QNX, and the list gets
very long.

Microsoft has a hard time getting a PC or PDA that will run reliably
without some pretty careful tweaking and nursing. Hardly what I'd call
an appliance.

What Microsoft DOES do well is provide all the help you want, even more
than you want, without needing a book.
JEDIDIAH
2006-05-18 19:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
What makes you think that someone who can't be bothered to
maintain a system will be at all interested in REBUILDING it? You
might as well expect them to install FreeBSD while you're at it.

[deletia]
--
Truth is irrelevant as long as the predictions are good. |||
/ | \
The Ghost In The Machine
2006-05-18 23:00:04 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
<***@nomad.mishnet>
wrote
on Thu, 18 May 2006 14:30:34 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
on Thu, 18 May 2006 08:40:36 -0500
Post by JEDIDIAH
Post by DFS
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost;
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
(until it broke again) -- assuming that the OEM actually
gave a disk of Windows XP that can reinstall.
What makes you think that someone who can't be bothered to
maintain a system will be at all interested in REBUILDING it? You
might as well expect them to install FreeBSD while you're at it.
Well, I *was* being optimistic. ;-) In any event, one hopes
Mom #2 got a Linux system. Perhaps I should have added

"and assuming the user can actually figure out how to install it
through all the reboots". :-)
Post by JEDIDIAH
[deletia]
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-22 22:15:56 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by JEDIDIAH
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
It probably would, but I've met many people who _know_ their machines
are hooped - loaded with viruses, for example - but who simply limp
along, with crashes, degraded performance, occasional lost data and the
like, figuring that the easiest way is to wait until they're ready to
buy a new computer.

Partly I suspect this is because they recall the nightmare they went
through installing their software the last time; even on a relatively
"fluffy" system, this can easily be an entire day's work.
Mathew P.
2006-05-23 21:11:06 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Post by JEDIDIAH
My mother-in-law just had to get an entirely new PC just because
XP is prone to infection and implosion.
Huh?
One would think a reinstall of Windows XP would fix that
It probably would, but I've met many people who _know_ their machines
are hooped - loaded with viruses, for example - but who simply limp
along, with crashes, degraded performance, occasional lost data and the
like, figuring that the easiest way is to wait until they're ready to
buy a new computer.
Partly I suspect this is because they recall the nightmare they went
through installing their software the last time; even on a relatively
"fluffy" system, this can easily be an entire day's work.
I remember a popular wintroll tag line a while back was, "Linux ate my
hard drive".

Nudge, nudge, say no more!

Regards,

Mathew




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--
"Always do the right thing: It will delight / Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies
some and astound the rest" - Mark Twain / Psychotronic protection, low prices
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-22 21:51:24 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose. Considering you can get tons of open
source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low as $99
($0 if you pirate).
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost; what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access to
the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best
software is very high. So, let's see:

Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres

To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
William Poaster
2006-05-22 23:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
says...
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose. Considering you can get tons of
open source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low
as $99 ($0 if you pirate).
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost; what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access
to the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best software
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things such
as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, but
suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best software.
As regards <quote> what's the value to you (in time savings, peace of
mind, ease of use, productivity) <unquote>

A] In time savings, I'm not having to defrag my drives.

B] Peace of mind, I'm not *constantly* having to scan for malware/adware.

C] Ease of use, it's no harder to use than windwoes.

D] Productivity, more done because of A & B.
--
www.jlaforums.com steals usenet newsgroup posts, & misleads the public
into thinking the posts come from their own forums. THEY DON'T!
This post was originally posted in a USENET newsgroup.
USENET is free to anyone with a newsreader.
Mathew P.
2006-05-23 21:06:38 UTC
Permalink
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Post by William Poaster
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
says...
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose. Considering you can get tons of
open source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be as low
as $99 ($0 if you pirate).
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux "advocate"
it's hard to even call Windows a cost; what's the value to you (in time
savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity) of having easy access
to the best software, games, and hardware in the world?
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best software
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things such
as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, but
suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best software.
As regards <quote> what's the value to you (in time savings, peace of
mind, ease of use, productivity) <unquote>
A] In time savings, I'm not having to defrag my drives.
B] Peace of mind, I'm not *constantly* having to scan for malware/adware.
C] Ease of use, it's no harder to use than windwoes.
D] Productivity, more done because of A & B.
One more thing (at least, all that occurs to me at the moment); Security.
It is amazing the warm fuzzyy feeling of being able to roam the internet
without the fear of getting buggered with your pants on. Or for that
matter, just keeping a broadband connection continuously running without
experiencing a self induced stroke.

Regards,

Mathew



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--
"Always do the right thing: It will delight / Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies
some and astound the rest" - Mark Twain / Psychotronic protection, low prices
DFS
2006-05-23 03:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by DFS
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
If you're cheap and broke, I suppose. Considering you can get tons
of open source software for Windows, the true cost difference can be
as low as $99 ($0 if you pirate).
But really, unless you're a short-sighted, close-minded Linux
"advocate" it's hard to even call Windows a cost; what's the value
to you (in time savings, peace of mind, ease of use, productivity)
of having easy access to the best software, games, and hardware in
the world?
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
My guess is you actually use few to none of those programs.

Some are *nix only, so if you really think they're all the best (they're
not) you'll have to find a Windows equivalent.
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-24 08:16:20 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by DFS
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
My guess is you actually use few to none of those programs.
Then you'd guess wrong.

Right now I have three servers sitting on my desk, plus two desktop
machines. One of the servers is being set up as a mail server, running
postfix, cyrus (rather than dovecot) and squirrelmail. The others are
being set up as Apache servers. One of the servers downstairs is a
Postgres server, though most of the DB servers we're running are MySQL.

The desktop machine runs Pan, Kmail, Kopete and Konq, plus many more apps
- Firefox, vlc, kdevelop, kate, nvu, quanta, its own local installs of
Apache and MySQL, leafnode, OpenOffice, the list goes on and on.

Just because *you* can't figure out how to use pointy-clicky install apps
doesn't mean the rest of us can't get software installed.
Mathew P.
2006-05-23 21:00:11 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2006-05-22, Kelsey Bjarnason spake thusly:

---------------8<-------------
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
You forgot SLRN *

;-)

Regards,

Mathew

* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.


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--
"Always do the right thing: It will delight / Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies
some and astound the rest" - Mark Twain / Psychotronic protection, low prices
The Ghost In The Machine
2006-05-23 22:00:04 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mathew P.
<***@COLA.com>
wrote
on Tue, 23 May 2006 21:00:11 GMT
Post by Mathew P.
---------------8<-------------
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
Personally, the value to me in terms of having access to the best
Apache
Postfix
Exim
Cyrus
Dovecot
Postgres
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
You forgot SLRN *
;-)
Regards,
Mathew
* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.
Cygnus has a complete X build environment (including
Intrinsics). QT should as well. KDE is being worked on.
I don't know about Gnome but Gtk has Gdk which isolates
things nicely. Tcl/Tk has a Windows variant. Apache has
a Windows variant. I'd be surprised if PostgreSQL did not.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
Mathew P.
2006-05-23 23:17:00 UTC
Permalink
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mathew P.
on Tue, 23 May 2006 21:00:11 GMT
Post by Mathew P.
---------------8<-------------
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
To name but a few. Oh, I could keep on listing them, include things
such as KMail, Pan, Kopete, Gaim, Konqueror, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,
etc, but suffice it to say that thanks to Linux I *do* get the best
software.
You forgot SLRN *
;-)
Regards,
Mathew
* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.
Cygnus has a complete X build environment (including
Intrinsics). QT should as well. KDE is being worked on.
I don't know about Gnome but Gtk has Gdk which isolates
things nicely. Tcl/Tk has a Windows variant. Apache has
a Windows variant. I'd be surprised if PostgreSQL did not.
As I said, I am aware of some crossovers, but AFAIK OSS projects
specifically for windows, is a rare breed, if more than a myth.

Of course, there are apps that are cross platform by nature; Python,
TKinter, Curses, Java and such.

Regards,

Mathew


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--
"Always do the right thing: It will delight / Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies
some and astound the rest" - Mark Twain / Psychotronic protection, low prices
DFS
2006-05-24 01:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mathew P.
* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.
Tons is an exaggeration, but there are Windows
versions\ports\implementations\ide's of some of the biggest or best or
well-known OSS apps and languages: Firefox, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Apache,
OpenOffice, Eclipse, perl, Python, jvm, etc.
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-24 08:11:32 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by Mathew P.
You forgot SLRN *
;-)
Indeed. I tend not to use it, but those who do tend to swear by it.
Post by Mathew P.
* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.
There's a few, to be sure. Let's see the list that compares to what comes
bundled with Debian, though. :)
Jamie Hart
2006-05-25 13:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by Mathew P.
You forgot SLRN *
;-)
Indeed. I tend not to use it, but those who do tend to swear by it.
Post by Mathew P.
* What is the deal with this "there are tons of OSS apps for windows"
stuff. I have seen maybe a dozen crossovers, but _Tons_ ? I'm not at
all convinced.
There's a few, to be sure. Let's see the list that compares to what comes
bundled with Debian, though. :)
I don't know how many packages are in Debian but sourceforge alone has
21,189 projects that are for Windows, almost as many as for Linux
(29,310 for POSIX OS's).
Kelsey Bjarnason
2006-05-26 03:30:02 UTC
Permalink
[snips]
Post by Jamie Hart
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
There's a few, to be sure. Let's see the list that compares to what comes
bundled with Debian, though. :)
I don't know how many packages are in Debian but sourceforge alone has
21,189 projects that are for Windows, almost as many as for Linux
(29,310 for POSIX OS's).
Sure - but a lot of those are pre-alpha, completely dead, still in the
concept stage, etc.
Jamie Hart
2006-05-26 06:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
[snips]
Post by Jamie Hart
Post by Kelsey Bjarnason
There's a few, to be sure. Let's see the list that compares to what comes
bundled with Debian, though. :)
I don't know how many packages are in Debian but sourceforge alone has
21,189 projects that are for Windows, almost as many as for Linux
(29,310 for POSIX OS's).
Sure - but a lot of those are pre-alpha, completely dead, still in the
concept stage, etc.
Agreed, but that holds true for both Windows and Posix projects.

So there are still almost as many Windows projects as there are Posix ones.
Rex Ballard
2006-05-18 00:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
I supposed the next question to be asked would be "If you could sell
the machines with BOTH Linux and Windows installed, would you prefer
to do that?
If they say, yes, we would love to be able to sell machines capable of
running Linux and Windows concurrently, then the next question might
be; "What is stopping you?".
a. of the exorbitant cost of installing and supporting two incompatible
operating systems
Actually, the cost of installing multiple operating systems in
negligable. Once you have a master image, let's say a 200 gigabyte
hard drive, and you have multiple operating systems, including perhaps
Windows XP or Vista, SuSE, Red Hat, Linspire, and Ubuntu, you still
have about 150 gigabytes that the user can allocate as desired.

We could even make it easy. Suppose we use Microsoft Virtual Server,
and install Linux Virtual machines - no partitioning problems at all.

Each Linux distributor can then offer the user "support contracts" at
around $50/year for updates and other technical support.

Sure, some folks with limited means might just use the installed
version "as is", but the ones who see value in Linux would probably
have no problem paying $50/year or $5/month for a "support contract".
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Yep. Free linux does make the cost of MS look exorbitant.
Actually, given the potential for revenue from support contracts, the
Linux distributors might even be willing to give the OEMs a "cut" of
the support contracts. Maybe even a "commission" of 5-10% - that's
only $2 per supported PC, but that could be a nice chunk of change.

In addition, offering Linux on the PC might even increase the value of
the PC. Customers might be willing to pay 20-30% more for a PC that
runs Windows AND Linux, than they would for a computer that ONLY runs
Linux.

In fact, if Linux were the host operating system and there were guest
images of Windows, SuSE, Red Hat, and Linspire, you could use a 64 bit
processor, with ext3 file system, and have linux functioning as a
firewall and router or NAT router.

It might even be possible to eliminate the issue of "tampering with the
boot sequence". After all, once the Windows VM Boots, there is no need
to interfere with the VM Boot Sequence. For Microsoft to claim that
this would be a hardship, would be pretty hard to explain to the
Judge(s).
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
b. of the customer confusion it will definitely create
Yep. How come the free one works better?
It's funny, but when people are using a properly configured Linux
system or Linux VM, their biggest confusion is how to get Windows to
talk to it. fortunately, most good VMs permit cut/paste and drag/drop
between the host OS and the VMs.
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
If they point to specific clauses in the OEM agreement which force
them to exclude Linux, then I think we may have a case for contempt of
court.
And while we're at it, let's ask IBM, Lenovo, HP, Dell, Gateway, Acer,
and every other OEM.
Yes, why don't you? Why haven't you? It's all you Linux weirdos can talk
about - so why hasn't a single one of you pursued the "illegal,
restrictive OEM contracts" accusations any further than the end of your
nose?
I've read the OEM contracts.

I've also read the corporate contracts.

I've also read the transcripts of several Microsoft court cases,
including depositons, motions, and rulings.

Most of these issues are a matter of court record. Some of those
records may be sealed, as part of settlements, but they could be
unsealed if there were a criminal investigation or if the seal was used
to prevent a criminal investigation. In fact, the seal could be ruled
as obstruction of justice and all parties in the settlement could be
prosecuted.

Fortunately for Microsoft, Elliott Spitzer is running for Mayor.
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
1) it will be a waste of your money
It takes time. A good lawyer chargest $300/hour. Even a legal aid
bills out at over $1/minute. Often, court records require searching
microform archives, these aren't indexed and can't be searched by
"Google" the way Web pages can. It can take weeks, even months, of
research to track down references to cases for which the records have
been sealed. The Antitrust case took 25 states, about 200 lawyers, and
nearly 4 years to research, prosecute, and argue to the appellate
court. Figure $300/hour and 3,000 hours/year times 200 lawyers -
that's about $180 million, almost $200 million including support and
other expenses. Fortunately district attorneys make far less money,
and much of the work was done at "federal or state rates" which were
much lower. But that's about what it would cost for me to try and dig
up the "smoking gun" articles you are looking for.
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
2) you're deathly afraid it will confirm what you already suspect but try
to cover up with macho cola posturing: the OEMs sell what they want to
sell.
The OEMs are given a very limited set of choices by Microsoft. During
the DOJ Antitrust hearings, we sow exactly the kind of choice Microsoft
offered to IBM. IBM could either stop selling OS/2 entirely, or they
could stop selling ANY version of Windows entirely.

Keep in mind that IBM got OS/2 as a settlement for a case in which Bill
Gates was discovered to have personally ordered the Embezzlement of
$millions of dollars from IBM.

Keep in mind that IBM had put Microsoft in it's position by allowing
Bill Gates to keep his intellectual property rights and allowing him to
sell to other OEMs.

Keep in mind that Microsoft double-crossed IBM by eliminating the need
to license IBM's patents and technology - offering "MS-DOS Compatible"
in place of "IBM PC Compatible" technology (I'm not sure that was such
a bad thing).

And the point is, that when given the choice between selling ONLY OS/2
and ONLY Windows, they had to choose Windows, since it was pretty
obvious that the other OEMs weren't going to choose to sell ONLY OS/2.

Is it really such a stretch to believe that Microsoft might have
offered similar choices to the other OEMs?

You don't think they might have said something like "You can sell ONLY
Windows. If you want to sell Linux, then you will not be able to sell
ANY Windows".

Dell sold their machines with SCO Unix when they first started
business.

Compac had Ultrix and VMS, both of which would have run on Linux.

And how might you guess they responded when Bob Young of Red Hat called
them up and said "I'll give you Linux for $2/PC, you can have as many
as you want, and you also install Windows if you would like. All we
want you to do is install Linux. We'll even take care of the user
support. We'll even make sure that your image is properly configured
for your machines.

And when Microsoft came back and told Compaq; "Because you put Netscape
on the desktop and removed the IE Icon from the desktop, we are
revoking your license", do you think that made Gateway, HP, Dell, and
all of the others go "Gee, I guess I should start installing Linux and
Windows on the same machine now"?
Post by amosf © Tim Fairchild
Post by DFS
Why is it so freakin' hard to understand that basic market demand will
result in a proliferation of Linux OEM and retail vendors? All that has
to happen is for enough customers to ask for (and actually buy when they
appear) Linux machines.
Actually, one of the problems is that the customer does not have to ask
for Linux machines. In practice, all they need to do as ask or Linux
COMPATIBLE machines.

After all, if I can install Linux in less than 30 minutes from a DVD,
and have it fully configured and working with no special training or
effort, then it really isn't necessary to ask the OEM to install Linux
for me.

Of course, the interesting thing to notice is the huge jump in AMD-64
machines, which are nearly ALL Linux compatible (since that's the
easiest way to get 64 bit performance), and the huge drops in price on
machines which are NOT Linux compatible. Many "Windows Only" machines
are selling for less than half their production cost.

And with Vista possibly now being postponed until as late as 2009, it's
quite possible that OEMs will be insisting on some concessions from
Microsoft, like the ability to offer installation media kits, and the
ability to advertize that a computer model is "Linux Ready".
g***@netscape.net
2006-05-23 12:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
I got curious today about the computers I had heard Walmart was selling
with either Linux installed or no O.S. So I searched the web including
Walmart's site and could find nothing to indicate this is happening now.
Only articles from 2002 through 2004 talked about this phenomenon.
All Walmart's computers I can find today come loaded with Windows XP.
Does anyone know what has happened here? :-((((
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Bill

You have many replies and too much to read through.
I went to the Walmart site and did a search for Linspire in the
Electronics category and came up with Microtel SYSWM7009 PC, 2.0 GHz
AMD Sempron 3000+, $348 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX: store. It appears to be
in stock.

Link http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3762912


During 2003 I decided I do not want to go to from 98 to XP and I
started to look for Linux information I had been seeing in Yahoo Tech
news. Since I am only a user and not a techie, I choose Lindows at the
time. I bought a
(12- 2003) low-end computer, you might say, from Wal-Mart (Lindows 4.0)
for $200 with speakers, keyboard, mouse. (1400 megahertz AMD Athlon XP)
I had a spare monitor, floppy, cd burner. I determined in the beginning
that this would be a Linux Only box. I read enough about multi boot
issues and lack of drivers. No windows or gates in this box.
I have tried Suse, Kubuntu, Ubuntu and a couple of others since I have
drive trays (if I want to play) but I settled with Linspire because of
cnr. Again, I am only a user and that became very evident when I tried
dual booting. What a disaster. Hard drives (2 80gb, 1 30gb)are cheap
enough now. When Linspire had some Lindows cnr material to get rid of,
I bought some more on sale and I am good to 2011.
I added a Firewire card for an external Maxtor 80gb hd for backup. Usb
hub and Epson C82 printer work just fine.
I just installed an internal I/O Magic DVD writer, 16x dvd+rw 8x double
layer in my Linspire desktop machine. Linspire 5.1.427 recognized the
drive and everything is working.
It is installed as a master and the Iomega zip cd burner I installed a
couple of years ago is still setup as a slave.
I go with the onboard video, audio and network for cable modem.
A couple issues. I must plug the Epson printer right into the machine,
not the usb hub.
Also a 64mb usb 2.0 device plugged into the usb hub prevents my machine
from booting and I cannot even get into the bios. This device has to go
directly into the machine.
All my 98se files backed up onto my external hd are recognized by Linux
distros.
I use Open Office 2.0 as a substitue for Office 97.
Also, many Linux believers (religions) do not consider Linspire a real
Linux distro.
You will have to search and make you own decision.

Good luck.

Richard
Jeff…Relf
2006-05-23 20:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Hi Gagnonrchrd_netscape_net, Re: Your claim that you like Linux desktops,

Take a look at your headers: " Mozilla_5_0_Windows_U_Win98 "
you're posting via Google/FireFox on Win_98 !
Is Google any better than MicroSoft ?

P.S. Here's a song from Seattle's own Sky_Cries_Mary that well describes
Seattle's U_District... my home sweat home:

Cotse.NET/users/jeffrelf/_Cornerman_.MP3
Loading Image...
T Wake
2006-05-23 21:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff…Relf
Hi Gagnonrchrd_netscape_net, Re: Your claim that you like Linux desktops,
Take a look at your headers: " Mozilla_5_0_Windows_U_Win98 "
you're posting via Google/FireFox on Win_98 !
Is Google any better than MicroSoft ?
Who cares?
Post by Jeff…Relf
P.S. Here's a song from Seattle's own Sky_Cries_Mary that well describes
Again - who cares?

Why are you cross posting this to sci.physics?
Golden Boar
2006-05-23 22:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff…Relf
Hi Gagnonrchrd_netscape_net, Re: Your claim that you like Linux desktops,
Take a look at your headers: " Mozilla_5_0_Windows_U_Win98 "
you're posting via Google/FireFox on Win_98 !
Is Google any better than MicroSoft ?
P.S. Here's a song from Seattle's own Sky_Cries_Mary that well describes
Cotse.NET/users/jeffrelf/_Cornerman_.MP3
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000005LA4.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Not neccessarily. It is quite easy to fake headers.
Jeff…Relf
2006-05-23 22:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Golden_Boar, I metnioned that Gagnonrchrd's headers had this:

Mozilla_5_0_Windows_U_Win98

and you replied: Not neccessarily. It is quite easy to fake headers.

He said he liked Win_98 and not Win_XP... why would he fake all that ?
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