Discussion:
Report shows linux desktop use - far less than 1%
(too old to reply)
Sue Romer
2007-10-19 13:33:40 UTC
Permalink
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF


While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
chrisv
2007-10-22 15:40:47 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
*plonk*
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
2007-10-22 18:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
In other news: Porsche Carrera GT market share still lags that of the
Ford Pinto.
--
Paul Hovnanian ***@hovnanian.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Procrastinators: The leaders for tomorrow.
Greg Cox
2007-10-22 19:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
In other news: Porsche Carrera GT market share still lags that of the
Ford Pinto.
...despite the fact that new Porsche Carrera GTs are available free at
all Porsche dealers. Or is there a possible flaw in your analogy?
--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those that understand binary and those that don't." - Unknown
amicus_curious
2007-10-22 20:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
In other news: Porsche Carrera GT market share still lags that of the
Ford Pinto.
You seem to have a limited repetoire. Pintos have been discontinued for
some 25 to 30 years now, IIRC.

Triteness seems to be the mark of OSS.
Dan D. Lyons
2007-10-22 20:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
In other news: Porsche Carrera GT market share still lags that of the
Ford Pinto.
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market share no
matter how aggressive Toyota was.

If any beer was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market share no
matter how aggressive Budweiser was.

If any game console was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market
share no matter how aggressive MS pushed the XBox.

If any brand of gasoline was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market
share no matter how aggressive Exxon marketed their product.

If any brand of toothpaste was 100% free then it would have nearly 100%
market share no matter how aggressive Crest marketed their product.

The only way this wouldn't be true is if the 'free car' exploded randomly or
if the 'free beer' tasted like dog piss or if the 'free gas' destroyed your
engine or if the 'free toothpaste' destroyed your teeth. In other words, the
'free product' would have to be a total piece of crap not to take over the
market from a more expensive one.


Yet after 10 years of being 100% free and Windows being claimed as being so
very expensive most everybody uses Windows and nobody uses linux. Says a lot
about what average people think about linux don't it? They would rather pay
hundreds of $$$ than use something that is available in abundance for free.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
The Ghost In The Machine
2007-10-22 20:50:13 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Dan D. Lyons
<***@gmail.com>
wrote
on Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:19:32 -0400
Post by Dan D. Lyons
Post by Paul Hovnanian P.E.
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center
and as an embedded OS in devices, it has never gained
much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5 percent share
of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
In other news: Porsche Carrera GT market share still lags
that of the Ford Pinto.
[snip for brevity]
Post by Dan D. Lyons
Yet after 10 years of being 100% free and Windows being
claimed as being so very expensive most everybody uses
Windows and nobody uses linux. Says a lot about what
average people think about linux don't it? They would
rather pay hundreds of $$$ than use something that is
available in abundance for free.
[1] $50 or so, depending on OEM licensing prices.
I'd frankly have to delve deep.

[2] That cost is not published in OEM sales quotes,
though one might see deltas between Windows Vista
Basic and Winows Vista Ultimate in such places
as Dell's configuration window. (Since Dell
does not put Linux distros in that same window,
one cannot get an accurate fix.)

[2] People like Windows; it works for them. It doesn't
work as well as it could, but it does work.

[3] Windows is the default solution on the x86 desktop, both
because of its monopoly and because of its high
visibility. Linux tends not to crash; kernel panics,
freezes, and other such are rare (though not unknown).
Windows, by contrast, malfunctions rather too often,
showing its trademark "stop screen" (aka BSOD) in very
public places. While such is slightly embarrassing
to Microsoft, presumably, it also shows prospective
clients that Windows is in use everywhere -- or at
least everywhere that is visible. Bad press is better
than no press, especially during a full-court press...

[4] The x86 desktop is the default solution hardware-wise.
I'm not sure how much of this is Intel/Windows synergy,
how much of it is backward-compatibility, how much
of it is Intel dirty tricks, and how much of it is
Intel actually being *better* (or at least quicker
and/or cheaper to market), but it's clear that a vast
majority of desktops are now x86-based.

[5] People don't know about Linux, as Linux has no
marketing budget. It is far from clear that Linux
ever will, though IBM in particular might push it some
in order to further sell their z-series hardware.
Of course Linux does get reasonably good press,
though one might ask for how long that will continue.
Microsoft, after all, isn't going to sit back and let
Linux soak up the limelight for that long, is it?

[6] Application developers look for the most likely
solution. That solution, for the most part, is
Windows, although a fair number will do porting work
to Linux (e.g., Unreal Tournament 2004, Quake 4).

[7] Desktops eventually wear out.

[C] Therefore, Windows Vista wins. It's an unfortunate mess.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
Insert random misquote here.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
2007-10-23 00:31:21 UTC
Permalink
"Dan D. Lyons" wrote:
[snip]
Post by Dan D. Lyons
Yet after 10 years of being 100% free and Windows being claimed as being so
very expensive most everybody uses Windows and nobody uses linux. Says a lot
about what average people think about linux don't it? They would rather pay
hundreds of $$$ than use something that is available in abundance for free.
Its not so much a question of cost as it is skill level. I'm willing to
concede that there is a high learning curve to switch from Windows to
Linux. Less so now than in the past, but those with very low demands on
an O/S aren't going to invest the time needed. Even if the cost and
performance are higher after the switch is made.

IMO, Linux is growing in exactly the correct markets. Those who need
higher performance, more reliable systems are more likely to switch,
leaving the rest behind.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:***@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" while looking for a rock.
Gregory Shearman
2007-10-23 07:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan D. Lyons
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market share no
matter how aggressive Toyota was.
But windows is free when you purchase a computer.
--
Regards,

Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
Rex Ballard
2007-10-23 12:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Dan D. Lyons
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market share no
matter how aggressive Toyota was.
Remember, for almost 20 years Ford ONLY offered the Model T and you
could only get it in black. If Ford had mandated that all car dealers
sold ONLY Model Ts, demanded that they be sold ONLY "AS IS", with
absolutely no modifications allowed, required special tools for the
mechanics, and jailed any mechanic who attempted to alter or modify a
Model T in any way, it would have had a chilling effect on the
industry. As it is, Ford stifled innovation by refusing to support
new innovations such as automatic spark advance (you set advance
manually on the Model T), fuel mixture in the carburetor (also manual
on the Model T). The irony is that Model T Fords were actually very
dangerous. Attempting to slow down or speed up would cause the car to
backfire, which often caused horses to panic. Drivers would be so
involved with mixture, spark advance, and manual throttle that they
were often too destracted to avoid hazards. Ford didn't even have a
monopoly.

Thomas Edison was so committed to protecting his patent on the
governer used to syncronize generators that he fought alternating
current for almost a decade. It was only when Westinghouse was able
to demonstrate that they could use transformers and balancing loops to
distribute power across thousands of homes and miles of line, that
General Electric finally made the switch to alternating current.

Thomas Edison also use draconian measures to protect is patents on the
movie cameras. Producers were required to pay royalties in advance
and royalties on the movie tickets. When they didn't, Edison sent
hired goons who would go out and break the cameras or seize the
cameras and the film. Edison's goons chased these movie producers all
the way from New York and New Jersey to California. Eventually, the
courts ruled that overstepped his rights and revoked his patent on the
camera and the projector. This ruling opened the door for other
innovations such as the sound track and color film.
Post by Gregory Shearman
But windows is free when you purchase a computer.
Actually, Windows is part of the price of the computer whether it's
installed or not. The OEMs pay for the licenses, and the price they
pay is based on minimum commitments made. For example, a small
retailer might have to charge $120/copy for OEM licenses installed on
custom configured computers. A company like Dell or HP makes a
minimum commitment of 120% of their previous years sales to get
discounted prices that can be as low as $30 per PC. A minumum
commitment of 119% would bring the price to $60 per PC. As a result,
if they sold 10 million computers the previous year, they could get 10
million licenses for $600 million, or they could get 12 million
licenses for $360 million. It's not hard to figure out which deal to
go with.

The problem is that these licenses can't be sold to other OEMs, can't
be sold at retail, and can't be sold to customer who haven't purchased
that computer. Secondly, the software has to preinstalled on the
computer as provided by Microsoft. Any alterations in the
configuration must be approved in writing by Microsoft. Until the
Antitrust ruling, the only way an OEM could sell a PC without
preinstalling Windows, was to sell it without a hard drive.

Ford never threatened to shut down the town paper if they carried ads
for Chevy. Microsoft on the other hand actually DID pull full page
ads featuring the Microsoft logo, including the ads of numerous
computer manufacturers and software vendors, when magazines like Byte
refused to stop giving positive coverage of Linux, Solaris, UnixWare,
and OS/2.

The telephone company used to disconnect the telephone service of
anyone who tried to directly connect telephone modems to the telephone
network. Eventually this resulted in the break-up of AT&T, but for
almost 30 years, your options were to use an accustical coupler, which
limited your speed to 300 bits per second, or to purchase very
expensive "leased lines" and lease the modem from AT&T which gave you
the ability to communicate at 9600 or even 56,000 bits per second.
With start, stop, and parity bits, the 300 bps modem could be as slow
as 20 characters per second.

The Sholes keyboard was actually patented for it's ability to slow
down the typist. It's layout his one of the CAUSES of repetitive
stress injuries. In the 1890s, when it was first used, the gravity
fed keys would jam, and the arrangement made the typist slow down. As
typewriters improved, typing "Schools" taught students to "defeat" the
sholes keyboard through carefully orchestrated drills and extensive
practice. In 6 months, with daily practice for 2-3 hours/day, a
typist could eventually learn to type as fast as 80 words per minute.
The tuition to get to those typewriters was often very high, as much
as a month's wages at median income - the equivalent of about $4,000
in today's money.

In 1932, during the depression, August Dvorak saw the Sholes patent
and decided to create a typewriter that would be optimized to help the
typist type faster. He laid out the vowels on the "home row" of the
left hand "aoeui" then the most frequently used consonants on the
home row of the right hand "dhtns". Above that, he put the other
frequently used consonants "fgcrl". And the most frequently used
puntuation above the left hand home row "',.py". The least frequently
used consonants and punctuation were below the home row ";qjkx" on the
left and "bmwvz" on the right. The final keyboard looked something
like this:

',.py fgcrl/=
aoeui dhtns-
;qjkx bmwvz

He then offered the new typewriters to a local public school, and
taught some students to type on the new keyboard. Within a few days
they had mastered the keyboard, and within a few weeks they were
typing at 40 words per minute. During speed drills they were often
able to type as fast as 80 words per minute by the end of a semester.
A student could learn to type at professional speeds for less than a
week's pay - about $800 in today's money.

To the typing schools, this was not a good thing. They did everything
they could to stop the Dvorak keyboard from winning acceptance. They
refused to teach the new keyboard, telling students that the Sholes
keyboard was designed to be faster (in spite of notes on the original
patent). They threatened to boycott typewriter companies who made
Dvorak keyboard equipped typewriters, and tried to have Dvorak
keyboard typists banned from typing competitions (the worlds' record
of almost 200 words per minute is held by a Dvorak typist). They even
tried to have them banned from offices, claiming that the "machine
gun" bursts of keyboard activity was distracting to other typists.
This was somewhat valid, since the arrangement tended to turn normal
English words into almost a single motion of alternating left and
right hand actions, the right hand would be prepared for the next
consonant while the left hand was typing the vowel, and vice-versa..

IBM offered a Dvorak keyboard ball for their Selectric Typewriter, and
Apple offered a little switch on it's Apple II-C computer. Today,
Windows, Unix/X11, and Linux/X11 all give users the option of
selecting a Dvorak keyboard. Because Dvorak keyboard typists learn to
touch type, often using
the "map" below in a notepad window in the lower right hand of the
screen
`12345 67890[]
',.py fgcrl/=\
aoeui dhtns-
;qjkx bmwvz

, they don't need to rearrange the actual keys. You only know they
have a Dvorak keyboard when you type a "k" on the keyboard and get a
"t" instead. As a result, 99.99% of all keyboards are sold as Sholes
or "Querty" keyboards, and no one has a clue how many of those
computers have been configured with Dvorak. I always found it ironic
that Microsoft was willing to market a special Ergonomic Keyboard for
almost 4 times the price of a "normal" keyboard, and yet they didn't
provide a Dvorak layout, but then again, it's so easy to learn that
most Dvorak typists didn't care.

Remember, Chrysler needed a "bail out" because they were convinced
that "people don't want small economy cars, they want big muscle
cars". The problem was that when the price of gas shot from 25 cents/
gallon to over a dollar per gallon, and the baby boomers were at that
age where they had to pay for their own gas, they couldn't afford a
$15 tank of gas at $1.25/hour wages. They would have to work for
almost 2 days to pay for one tank of gas that would last them 2 days.

When Honda introduced the Civic, it was almost a joke. Most American
car dealers joked that the Civic was a "four wheeled motorcycle".
There were many similarities to motorcycle engines. The VW Bug engine
was even air-cooled to reduce the size and fuel consumption. These
cars had gained popularity in countries were a full tank of gasoline
for an American car could cost a WEEKS pay. When the gas crisis hit,
baby boomers snapped up the economy cars as fast as they could get
them. Ford, GM, and Chrysler tried to get the government to set
quotas and restrictions and terriffs to keep the cheap cars out. By
the time the American car makers finally got in sync with the market,
AMC was gone, Chrysler needed a Bail-out, Ford was selling exploding
Pintos, and GM was simply rebranding cars built from Japanese parts as
"american".

Many of the innovations of the Asian car makers were actually
American. Fuel Injection, rotary engine, 4 valves per cylinder, turbo-
charging, and idiot proof automatic transmissions, were all invented
in the United States. Peter Demming tried to introduce quality
control to US car makers and was dismissed as a "crack-pot" - Auto
makers feared that if a car lasted 10-12 years, people woudn't buy as
many cars. When Demming approach Honda and Toyota, they loved his
ideas, and now American highways are dominated by Asian cars that run
for 10-15 years reliably.

The irony in each of the examples above, is that superior technology
entered the market almost undetected, was opposed by the dominant
players, and eventually became a pervasive option in the marketplace.
Linux is a similar "covert revolution".

Keep in mind that staying "under the radar" works well for Linux.
Because Microsoft is unwilling to post it's actual survey results and
market research information, courts in the US, Europe, Asia,
Australia, South America, and Africa have attempted to limit
Microsoft's control of the market, making it easier for vendors to
market "Linux Ready" systems.

Today Linux has impacted the market significantly. Open Source
Software, often originally developed FOR Unix and Linux, has become
pervasive in the marketplace. Look at the increase in Open Office
users and the increase in FireFox users and you begin to see that
these OSS projects are "outselling" Microsoft's products in a huge
way.

Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million copies of Office 2000 and
Office XP with Office 2007. Open Office has picked up 300 million NEW
users in the last year. Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million
existing copies of IE 6 with IE7 this year. Last year, FireFox was
installed on the desktops of nearly 500 million NEW users. How many
copies of Cygwin have been installed? - not even Red Hat knows. How
many copies of VMWare Player have been installed? Even EMC doesn't
know.

Counting Linux or OSS users is like trying to count the rats in the
sewer, or the cats in the alley. You might never actually see the
rats or the cats, because they would scurry out of site at the first
site of an intruder. What you can see is the droppings, furballs, and
other secondary evidence of their existence.

Microsoft is terrified at the prospect of Google getting double-
click. One of the reasons is that Double-Click is one of the few
companies that can actually count the droppings and figure out how
many of each kind of animal there are. When Microsoft can use it's
muscle to keep them quiet, the information doesn't become public.
When Google, a company that doesn't cave in to Microsoft pressure, has
access to that information, they might be willing to tell a story that
Microsoft doesn't want told.

Think about it. Even if Linux is only sold on 1% of the market, but
99 out of 100 Linux users install it themselves, that means that the
real percentage could a much bigger percentage of total market.

If you look at the water coming out of the sewer, at it's turning a
dark brown from all the rat droppings, you know that you probably need
to take some radical action.

We know there are over 100 Linux distributions, so there must be SOME
kind of market.
We know that Magazines containing Linux distributions are being sold
in Borders, Barnes and Noble, and B-Dalton every month. I can see how
many copies there are at the beginning of the month, and at the end of
the month. This would indicate that even 50 copies per store per
month isn't enough (since they are usually "sold out" by the middle of
the month)..
Post by Gregory Shearman
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
DFS
2007-10-23 12:49:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Dan D. Lyons
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market
share no matter how aggressive Toyota was.
But windows is free when you purchase a computer.
Actually, Windows is part of the price of the computer whether it's
installed or not. The OEMs pay for the licenses, and the price they
pay is based on minimum commitments made. For example, a small
retailer might have to charge $120/copy for OEM licenses installed on
custom configured computers. A company like Dell or HP makes a
minimum commitment of 120% of their previous years sales to get
discounted prices that can be as low as $30 per PC. A minumum
commitment of 119% would bring the price to $60 per PC. As a result,
if they sold 10 million computers the previous year, they could get 10
million licenses for $600 million, or they could get 12 million
licenses for $360 million. It's not hard to figure out which deal to
go with.
You made up every number here...
Post by Rex Ballard
The problem is that these licenses can't be sold to other OEMs, can't
be sold at retail, and can't be sold to customer who haven't purchased
that computer. Secondly, the software has to preinstalled on the
computer as provided by Microsoft. Any alterations in the
configuration must be approved in writing by Microsoft. Until the
Antitrust ruling, the only way an OEM could sell a PC without
preinstalling Windows, was to sell it without a hard drive.
...you made up every claim here...
Post by Rex Ballard
Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million copies of Office 2000 and
Office XP with Office 2007. Open Office has picked up 300 million NEW
users in the last year. Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million
existing copies of IE 6 with IE7 this year. Last year, FireFox was
installed on the desktops of nearly 500 million NEW users.
...and you made up every number here.
Post by Rex Ballard
We know there are over 100 Linux distributions, so there must be SOME
kind of market.
There are more than 500 droppings listed on distrowatch.
s***@freenet.co.uk
2007-10-23 14:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by Gregory Shearman
Post by Dan D. Lyons
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market
share no matter how aggressive Toyota was.
But windows is free when you purchase a computer.
Actually, Windows is part of the price of the computer whether it's
installed or not. The OEMs pay for the licenses, and the price they
pay is based on minimum commitments made. For example, a small
retailer might have to charge $120/copy for OEM licenses installed on
custom configured computers. A company like Dell or HP makes a
minimum commitment of 120% of their previous years sales to get
discounted prices that can be as low as $30 per PC. A minumum
commitment of 119% would bring the price to $60 per PC. As a result,
if they sold 10 million computers the previous year, they could get 10
million licenses for $600 million, or they could get 12 million
licenses for $360 million. It's not hard to figure out which deal to
go with.
You made up every number here...
Let's have the real ones then.
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million copies of Office 2000 and
Office XP with Office 2007. Open Office has picked up 300 million NEW
users in the last year. Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million
existing copies of IE 6 with IE7 this year. Last year, FireFox was
installed on the desktops of nearly 500 million NEW users.
...and you made up every number here.
Let's have the real ones then.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| ***@freenet.co.uk | "I'm alive!!! I can touch! I can taste! |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| I can SMELL!!! KRYTEN!!! Unpack Rachel and |
| in | get out the puncture repair kit!" |
| Computer Science | Arnold Judas Rimmer- Red Dwarf |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DFS
2007-10-23 23:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Actually, Windows is part of the price of the computer whether it's
installed or not. The OEMs pay for the licenses, and the price they
pay is based on minimum commitments made. For example, a small
retailer might have to charge $120/copy for OEM licenses installed
on custom configured computers. A company like Dell or HP makes a
minimum commitment of 120% of their previous years sales to get
discounted prices that can be as low as $30 per PC. A minumum
commitment of 119% would bring the price to $60 per PC. As a
result, if they sold 10 million computers the previous year, they
could get 10 million licenses for $600 million, or they could get
12 million licenses for $360 million. It's not hard to figure out
which deal to go with.
You made up every number here...
Let's have the real ones then.
Nobody but Microsoft and the licensing/contract personnel at each OEM knows
the real numbers. Rex sure doesn't. I sure don't.
Post by s***@freenet.co.uk
Post by DFS
Post by Rex Ballard
Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million copies of Office 2000 and
Office XP with Office 2007. Open Office has picked up 300 million
NEW users in the last year. Microsoft hopes to replace 100 million
existing copies of IE 6 with IE7 this year. Last year, FireFox was
installed on the desktops of nearly 500 million NEW users.
...and you made up every number here.
Let's have the real ones then.
Only MS knows how many existing Office seats they want to upgrade, and
nobody knows how many new OpenOffice or Firefox users there were.

Rex certainly has NO idea, but since he's a self-proclaimed Visionary For
The Linux Community the figures must have come to him in a vision (though my
guess is his pantyhose were too tight, and he got lightheaded and imagined
it all).
Thufir
2007-10-24 07:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by DFS
Nobody but Microsoft and the licensing/contract personnel at each OEM
knows the real numbers. Rex sure doesn't. I sure don't.
An empty assertion naysaying Rex's assertion.

In any event, disputing the numbers is a distraction from the claim that
the cost of Windows is passed onto the consumer -- that the Windows tax
exists and that Windows isn't free.

How much money does Microsoft make from Windows sales to OEM's per year?
How many OEM systems are sold with Windows pre-installed? Do some
arithmetic...


-Thufir
DFS
2007-10-24 14:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thufir
Post by DFS
Nobody but Microsoft and the licensing/contract personnel at each OEM
knows the real numbers. Rex sure doesn't. I sure don't.
An empty assertion naysaying Rex's assertion.
I'm right - as usual - and Rex is lying - as usual.
Post by Thufir
In any event, disputing the numbers
I'm not disputing the numbers. They may be spot on for one or more OEMs -
but Rex doesn't know that. He made them up, like he makes up so much of
what he posts.
Post by Thufir
is a distraction from the claim
that the cost of Windows is passed onto the consumer --
Of course it is.
Post by Thufir
that the Windows tax exists
There's no such thing.
Post by Thufir
and that Windows isn't free.
Even the "free" Vista Business version I got in the mail cost a couple hours
watching webcasts.
Post by Thufir
How much money does Microsoft make from Windows sales to OEM's per year?
$billions
Post by Thufir
How many OEM systems are sold with Windows pre-installed?
Millions

amicus_curious
2007-10-23 16:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
Post by Dan D. Lyons
If any car was 100% free then it would have nearly 100% market share no
matter how aggressive Toyota was.
Remember, for almost 20 years Ford ONLY offered the Model T and you
could only get it in black. If Ford had mandated that all car dealers
sold ONLY Model Ts, demanded that they be sold ONLY "AS IS", with
absolutely no modifications allowed, required special tools for the
mechanics, and jailed any mechanic who attempted to alter or modify a
Model T in any way, it would have had a chilling effect on the
industry.
More likely that it would have had a chilling effect on Ford and Willys
would be in much better shape.

But Ford, being an astute businessman, continued to give the public what it
wanted, even as the public's tastes changed over time. Microsoft does the
very same thing. It is the FOSS advocates, with their whining about
standards and strict adherence to them that cause the progress of man to
stutter and shake. If it is always standard, it will never get any better.
chrisv
2007-10-23 18:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
But Ford, being an astute businessman, continued to give the public what it
wanted, even as the public's tastes changed over time.
He had to - he did not have the larket power to control what was being
offered for sale, and it was easy for customers to switch to the
competing product.
Post by amicus_curious
Microsoft does the very same thing.
Liar.

Micro$oft only gives the customer what Micro$oft thinks is best for
Micro$oft. They can get away with this, because they have the market
power to control what's being offered for sale, and it is not easy for
customers to switch to the competing products.
Post by amicus_curious
It is the FOSS advocates, with their whining about
standards and strict adherence to them that cause the progress of man to
stutter and shake.
LOL You disgusting piece of shit.
Post by amicus_curious
If it is always standard, it will never get any better.
Again in English?
Thufir
2007-10-24 07:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by amicus_curious
But Ford, being an astute businessman, continued to give the public what
it wanted, even as the public's tastes changed over time.
That's an ass backwards explanation for competition in the market place.



-Thufir
chrisv
2007-10-23 12:37:19 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Don't you know you're stupid?

*plonk*
Rick
2007-10-22 21:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
Post by Sue Romer
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS
in devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even
Apple's 5 percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption,
which Net Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
Does stating this make you feel good?
--
Rick
Simon Templar
2007-10-22 21:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Romer
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
Post by Sue Romer
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS
in devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even
Apple's 5 percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption,
which Net Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
Does stating this make you feel good?
Reading it gave me a boner.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
William Poaster
2007-10-22 22:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sue Romer
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
Post by Sue Romer
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS
in devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even
Apple's 5 percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption,
which Net Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
Does stating this make you feel good?
Funny then that Blammer stated *Linux* was the #1 threat to M$ & *not*
Apple. Funny too, that the M$ shills & trolls spend their time trying to
put *Linux* down & NOT Apple.... Go figure.
--
Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
Testing: FreeBSD 7.0
Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy"
High Plains Thumper
2007-10-22 23:40:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Poaster
Sue Romer AKA 1st Lt Jean Poole, Barb Dwyer, Capt. James
Pike, Capt. Morgan, Captain Commando, Colonel Ichabod Conk,
Cpl. Kronk, Dr Gang Green, Dr. Disco, Dr. Fafoofnik, Dr.
Feelgood, Dr. GroundAxe, Dr. Hungwell, Dr. Hurt, Dr.
Livingston, Dr. McGillicudy, Dr. Pain, Dr. Seymour Butts,
Dr. Shlongwell, Dr. Shlongwell (aka your Boss), Dr. Smooth,
Dr. Zhivago, Gordon Glover, Lintard Luser, Lt. Stardust, Mr.
X, Ms. Polly Ester, Ofc. Michael Clayton, rafael (note the
nym-thief couldn't even leave poor Rafael alone), Randy
Oaks, Sgt. Wannacker, SgtMajor Gansevoort and Sir Michael
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and as
an embedded OS in devices, it has never gained much
traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5 percent share of
the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
Does stating this make you feel good?
Funny then that Blammer stated *Linux* was the #1 threat to M$
& *not* Apple. Funny too, that the M$ shills & trolls spend
their time trying to put *Linux* down & NOT Apple.... Go
figure.
Perhaps it is because Apple is in their back pocket?

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/ArticleID/17244/17244.html?Ad=1

[quote]
August 19, 1997
DOJ exploring Microsoft's Apple investment
Paul Thurrott

In addition to the investigation reported yesterday in WinInfo,
the U.S. Department of Justice is also looking into the
investment Microsoft made in Apple Computer two weeks ago. Though
Microsoft publicly committed to purchasing $150 million in
non-voting Apple stock, the company also paid Apple Computer an
undisclosed sum, thought to be in the hundreds of millions of
dollars range, to settle possible patent infringements and get a
cross-licensing deal with the Cupertino company.

Apple Computer has not yet responded to the DOJ investigation,
though Microsoft thought enough of it to issue a press release
yesterday. Officially, Microsoft is unconcerned.
[/quote]
--
HPT
Simon Templar
2007-10-22 23:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
[quote]
August 19, 1997
Wow - The troll found an article that's over 10 years old. Linux users -
we'll give you yesterdays news tomorrow. Kinda like linux and that new "Fast
user switching" innovation that XP has had for about 6 years now.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
High Plains Thumper
2007-10-23 00:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Simon Templar AKA Sue Romer, 1st Lt Jean Poole, Barb Dwyer, Capt.
James Pike, Capt. Morgan, Captain Commando, Colonel Ichabod Conk,
Cpl. Kronk, Dr Gang Green, Dr. Disco, Dr. Fafoofnik, Dr.
Feelgood, Dr. GroundAxe, Dr. Hungwell, Dr. Hurt, Dr. Livingston,
Dr. McGillicudy, Dr. Pain, Dr. Seymour Butts, Dr. Shlongwell, Dr.
Shlongwell (aka your Boss), Dr. Smooth, Dr. Zhivago, Gordon
Glover, Lintard Luser, Lt. Stardust, Mr. X, Ms. Polly Ester, Ofc.
Michael Clayton, rafael (note the nym-thief couldn't even leave
poor Rafael alone), Randy Oaks, Sgt. Wannacker, SgtMajor
"High Plains Thumper" wrote...
[quote] August 19, 1997
Wow - The troll found an article that's over 10 years old.
Linux users - we'll give you yesterdays news tomorrow. Kinda
like linux and that new "Fast user switching" innovation that
XP has had for about 6 years now.
Except that by GUI, Linux preceded that several years prior to XP
and since the inception of Linux. I was doing "switch user" on
Computervision Unix workstations in the mid 1980's. It is odd
how that over 20 years later, now we have innovation because
Microsoft decided to add that to XP.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

[quote]
When your tactics are turned on you, call you opponents trolls.
Do not accept the fact that by calling someone using your tactics
a troll that makes you the real troll.
[/quote]
--
HPT
High Plains Thumper
2007-10-22 23:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Sue Romer AKA 1st Lt Jean Poole, Barb Dwyer, Capt. James
Pike, Capt. Morgan, Captain Commando, Colonel Ichabod
Conk, Cpl. Kronk, Dr Gang Green, Dr. Disco, Dr. Fafoofnik,
Dr. Feelgood, Dr. GroundAxe, Dr. Hungwell, Dr. Hurt, Dr.
Livingston, Dr. McGillicudy, Dr. Pain, Dr. Seymour Butts,
Dr. Shlongwell, Dr. Shlongwell (aka your Boss), Dr.
Smooth, Dr. Zhivago, Gordon Glover, Lintard Luser, Lt.
Stardust, Mr. X, Ms. Polly Ester, Ofc. Michael Clayton,
rafael (note the nym-thief couldn't even leave poor Rafael
alone), Randy Oaks, Sgt. Wannacker, SgtMajor Gansevoort
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and
as an embedded OS in devices, it has never gained much
traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5 percent share of
the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
Oh, I wanted to add:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

[quote]
Web Statistics and Trends

Statistics are important information. From the statistics below,
collected from W3Schools' log-files over a period of five years,
you can extract the long and medium-term trends of operating
system usage.

OS Platform Statistics

Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The windows
family counts for nearly 90%:

2007 WinXP W2000 Win98 Vista W2003 Linux Mac
Sep. 74.3% 5.4% 0.9% 4.5% 2.0% 3.4% 3.8%
[/quote]

Linux is shown neck and neck with Apple, which is greater than
the troll's less than 1% it quotes.
--
HPT
cc
2007-10-23 03:39:40 UTC
Permalink
On Oct 22, 7:58 pm, High Plains Thumper
Post by High Plains Thumper
Sue Romer AKA 1st Lt Jean Poole, Barb Dwyer, Capt. James
Pike, Capt. Morgan, Captain Commando, Colonel Ichabod
Conk, Cpl. Kronk, Dr Gang Green, Dr. Disco, Dr. Fafoofnik,
Dr. Feelgood, Dr. GroundAxe, Dr. Hungwell, Dr. Hurt, Dr.
Livingston, Dr. McGillicudy, Dr. Pain, Dr. Seymour Butts,
Dr. Shlongwell, Dr. Shlongwell (aka your Boss), Dr.
Smooth, Dr. Zhivago, Gordon Glover, Lintard Luser, Lt.
Stardust, Mr. X, Ms. Polly Ester, Ofc. Michael Clayton,
rafael (note the nym-thief couldn't even leave poor Rafael
alone), Randy Oaks, Sgt. Wannacker, SgtMajor Gansevoort
Post by Sue Romer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/
bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAitLafU9IUjtBAF
While Linux is well established in the data center and
as an embedded OS in devices, it has never gained much
traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5 percent share of
the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
[quote]
Web Statistics and Trends
Statistics are important information. From the statistics below,
collected from W3Schools' log-files over a period of five years,
you can extract the long and medium-term trends of operating
system usage.
OS Platform Statistics
Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The windows
2007 WinXP W2000 Win98 Vista W2003 Linux Mac
Sep. 74.3% 5.4% 0.9% 4.5% 2.0% 3.4% 3.8%
[/quote]
Linux is shown neck and neck with Apple, which is greater than
the troll's less than 1% it quotes.
So those stats are legit now?
Tim Smith
2007-10-23 01:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by High Plains Thumper
Perhaps it is because Apple is in their back pocket?
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/ArticleID/17244/17244.html?Ad=1
Seven year old article, fails to back your claim (non-voting shares),
and Microsoft sold those shares a long time ago. Are you trying to do
an impression of Daeron?
High Plains Thumper
2007-10-23 02:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Smith
Post by High Plains Thumper
Perhaps it is because Apple is in their back pocket?
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/ArticleID/17244/17244.html?Ad=1
Seven year old article, fails to back your claim (non-voting
shares), and Microsoft sold those shares a long time ago. Are
you trying to do an impression of Daeron?
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/1997/08/18/smallb6.html

[quote]
Con: These ancillary arrangements mean that Gates will have a
significant, albeit nonvoting, role in future Apple directions.
[/quote]

[quote]
Con: The agreement between Apple and Microsoft calls for Apple to
package Internet Explorer with all-new computers made by Apple.
Netscape has already complained that Microsoft engages in unfair
competition, so it's almost certain that the DOJ will challenge
this deal. Obviously, it violates antitrust legislation.
[/quote]
--
HPT
Doug Mentohl
2007-10-24 09:47:09 UTC
Permalink
are you trying to do an impression of Daeron?
fuck off winTROLL ...
Rex Ballard
2007-10-23 14:22:15 UTC
Permalink
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAit...
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
From http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp (a Windows
site).


OS Platform Statistics

Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The windows family
counts for nearly 90%:
2007 WinXP W2000 Win98 Vista W2003 Linux Mac Other Total Linux
September 74.30% 5.40% 0.90% 4.50% 2.00% 3.40% 3.80% 5.70% 7.70%
August 74.40% 5.70% 0.90% 4.00% 2.00% 3.40% 3.90% 5.70% 7.70%
July 74.60% 6.00% 0.90% 3.60% 2.00% 3.40% 4.00% 5.50% 7.50%
June 74.60% 6.20% 0.90% 3.20% 2.00% 3.40% 4.00% 5.70% 7.70%
May 75.00% 6.50% 0.90% 2.80% 1.90% 3.40% 3.90% 5.60% 7.50%
April 75.80% 6.80% 0.90% 2.60% 1.90% 3.40% 3.90% 4.70% 6.60%
March 76.00% 7.20% 0.90% 1.90% 1.90% 3.40% 3.80% 4.90% 6.80%
February 76.10% 7.40% 0.90% 1.20% 1.90% 3.50% 3.80% 5.20% 7.10%
January 76.10% 7.70% 1.00% 0.60% 1.90% 3.60% 3.80% 5.30% 7.20%

Remember, that Linux browsers make up about 90% of the "other"
catagory because they use generic OS signatures.
Apple gained 1/10th of a percent of the installed base. Linux gained
almost 1.1%

Yet, Apple sold 2 million Macs this quarter, - about 12% of the total
market.

A bit of algebra - looks like Linux added about 20 million units this
year - about 110% of the market.
And Vista - also up 1%. Looks like Linux is beating everybody.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
Simon Templar
2007-10-23 14:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rex Ballard
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071017/bs_nf/56073;_ylt=Ag8nNmACRlCEbAit...
While Linux is well established in the data center and as an embedded OS in
devices, it has never gained much traction on the desktop. Even Apple's 5
percent share of the desktop is miles beyond Linux adoption, which Net
Applications ranks at less than 1 percent.
From http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp (a Windows
site).
OS Platform Statistics
Windows XP is the most popular operating system. The windows family
2007 WinXP W2000 Win98 Vista W2003 Linux Mac Other Total Linux
September 74.30% 5.40% 0.90% 4.50% 2.00% 3.40% 3.80% 5.70% 7.70%
August 74.40% 5.70% 0.90% 4.00% 2.00% 3.40% 3.90% 5.70% 7.70%
July 74.60% 6.00% 0.90% 3.60% 2.00% 3.40% 4.00% 5.50% 7.50%
June 74.60% 6.20% 0.90% 3.20% 2.00% 3.40% 4.00% 5.70% 7.70%
May 75.00% 6.50% 0.90% 2.80% 1.90% 3.40% 3.90% 5.60% 7.50%
April 75.80% 6.80% 0.90% 2.60% 1.90% 3.40% 3.90% 4.70% 6.60%
March 76.00% 7.20% 0.90% 1.90% 1.90% 3.40% 3.80% 4.90% 6.80%
February 76.10% 7.40% 0.90% 1.20% 1.90% 3.50% 3.80% 5.20% 7.10%
January 76.10% 7.70% 1.00% 0.60% 1.90% 3.60% 3.80% 5.30% 7.20%
Remember, that Linux browsers make up about 90% of the "other"
catagory because they use generic OS signatures.
Says who - you? So according to you this "other" category is 90% linux. I
guess all those smart-phones, Blackberry's, Palm Pilots, iPhones, Windows CE
based PDA's, WebTV and everything else doesn't add up to much of anything.
It's (of course) all linux.

Yeah, right.
Post by Rex Ballard
Apple gained 1/10th of a percent of the installed base. Linux gained
almost 1.1%
Yet, Apple sold 2 million Macs this quarter, - about 12% of the total
market.
A bit of algebra - looks like Linux added about 20 million units this
year - about 110% of the market.
And Vista - also up 1%. Looks like Linux is beating everybody.
The algebra is correct. Your assumptions are not.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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