Brace for glitches and GRUB grumbles as Ubuntu 24.04.1 lands

[rbowman]

The gamers have switched, according to
<https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/2/24234091/microsoft-windows-11-

popular-steam-pc-gaming-survey>.

There are other computer users than gamers. That also applies to those who
judge Linux distros on their suitability for games. I'm not saying the
game industry isn't profitable.

https://news.rpi.edu/content/2018/06/26/rensselaer-game-design-program-
among-top-10-nationwide

I don't recall that being an offering when I was an undergraduate. At
least it's ranked in the top ten in some discipline; overall it's fallen
down into the 50s along with Podunk State.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman

The gamers have switched ...

There are other computer users than gamers.

Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows is
not (yet) in dispute.

[candycanearter07]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman

The gamers have switched ...

There are other computer users than gamers.

Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows is
not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products. Not that
they couldn't run on Linux if they tried at all.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by candycanearter07

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
is not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.

Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.

Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by candycanearter07

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
is not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.

Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few more
users that you think.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed

base.
Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
more users that you think.

Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to squeeze
maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed

base.
Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
more users that you think.

Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to squeeze
maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.

It's weird how lies and ignorance and idiocy just flow out of you. A
few clicks and you could've - and should've - proven yourself wrong.


"The run rate of new subscriptions is close to 1 million per quarter –
adding an average of ~10,000 net new paid members every day for the CC
2024 product line."

https://prodesigntools.com/number-of-creative-cloud-subscribers.html


I would say 'get it together' but you're too old for that.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed

base.
Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few
more users that you think.

Not really. Adobe were one of the pioneers in figuring out how to
squeeze maximum revenue from a stagnant or declining user base.

"The run rate of new subscriptions is close to 1 million per quarter –
adding an average of ~10,000 net new paid members every day for the CC
2024 product line."
https://prodesigntools.com/number-of-creative-cloud-subscribers.html

How many of those are actually new users of Adobe products?

Remember how many people complained about the rentware model when Adobe
introduced it, all those years ago? And swore that they would stick with
their old versions and not upgrade?

Well, most of these would just be those existing users relenting and
agreeing to hand over more money to Adobe. Otherwise you would see
evidence of an increase in market share, and there is none in the above
link.

Unless you have a more relevant link you can provide ...

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by candycanearter07

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
is not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.

Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

Considering the billions Adobe rakes in annually there may be a few more
users that you think.

Adobe forms and digital signatures are used heavily in business. And, of
course, while the PDF format is mostly open, that stuff is proprietary code,
so you won't find it in, say Evince.

Luckily, realtors and such have provided alternate ways of signing that work in
browsers.

The contractor/industrial complex:

- Adobe
- Cisco
- Microsoft

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by candycanearter07

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Gaming is the only area left where the dominance of Microsoft Windows
is not (yet) in dispute.

Technically, it also dominates in Adobe and similar products.

Adobe is an irrelevance to 99% of Windows users.
Or, to put it another way, if the entire Adobe user base switched to
Linux, it would make very little difference to the Linux installed base.

Still out of your mind I see.


"According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."

https://www.skillademia.com/statistics/adobe-statistics/

https://photutorial.com/adobe-statistics/


23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M). It might even result in 2
more cola advocates.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by DFS
"According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."

*Paying* users, yes. How “active” is “active”? Remember that, if you stop
paying, you lose control of your own work.

So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

And there are good, in particular less restrictive, open source
alternatives to all of Adobe’s main products, no matter what their
marketing department tells you.

Post by DFS
23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M).

The number of copies of Linux in active daily use is far greater than
that.

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
"According to recent estimates, Adobe's Creative Cloud subscription
service had accumulated around 23 million active users as of mid-2022."

*Paying* users, yes. How “active” is “active”? Remember that, if you stop
paying, you lose control of your own work.

You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

I'm no fan of Adobe's business practices (subscription-only, high
prices, crazy license terms, difficult and costly to cancel), but this
is a bullshit lie that Linux lusers like to propagate.

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
ago became a verb.

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
And there are good, in particular less restrictive, open source
alternatives to all of Adobe’s main products,

More wishful thinking.


Creative Cloud ($59.99/month subscription) includes these 25 apps:

Acrobat Pro
Acrobat Reader
Adobe Express
Adobe Firefly
Adobe Fresco
Adobe Premiere Pro
Adobe Scan
Adobe XD
Aero
After Effects
Animate
Audition
Bridge
Capture
Character Animator
Dreamweaver
Fill & Sign
Illustrator
InCopy
InDesign
Lightroom
Lightroom Classic
Media Encoder
Photoshop
Photoshop Express

https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html


Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
let alone all of them?


If you want actual good alternatives to Adobe, the Affinity commercial
products are often recommended, and they're one-time purchase for a very
reasonable amt.

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
no matter what their marketing department tells you.

When did Adobe's 'marketing dept' make such a claim?

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
23M new Linux users would be a significant increase to the Linux
installed base of 17 (I didn't forget the M).

The number of copies of Linux in active daily use is far greater than
that.

I don't know about that. At any given time, cola has about 5 Linux-only
advocates. And that's down significantly from 10 years ago.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by DFS
You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.

If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Post by DFS
Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
ago became a verb.

So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?

Post by DFS
Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
let alone all of them?

The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

[candycanearter07]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

You can't even export it? That's terrible..

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Post by DFS
Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
ago became a verb.

So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?

Post by DFS
Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
let alone all of them?

The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
Adobe is very relevant to the world of photography. Photoshopped long
ago became a verb.

So did Xerox and Thermos. When was the last time you actually used a
product branded “Xerox” or “Thermos”?

Post by DFS
Got any evidence there are good FOSS alternatives to even one of them,
let alone all of them?

The simple fact that most people don’t use Adobe products. QED.

So you have no evidence whatsoever.


"no matter what their marketing department tells you."

And no evidence for this wild-ass claim, either.


There's a good "advocate".

[Joel]

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

That's a good argument until you realize that Winblows *isn't* such a
fantastic desktop OS, in the first place. Fun to use, sure, but only
if you have a very up-to-date computer, even Win10 in realistic terms
requires a lot of power, and 11 grew to be far worse.

Linux is a relief, from the commercial OSes' drag, M$ bloat and Apple
doofiness.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[candycanearter07]

Post by Joel

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.
Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here. So why
do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

That's a good argument until you realize that Winblows *isn't* such a
fantastic desktop OS, in the first place. Fun to use, sure, but only
if you have a very up-to-date computer, even Win10 in realistic terms
requires a lot of power, and 11 grew to be far worse.
Linux is a relief, from the commercial OSes' drag, M$ bloat and Apple
doofiness.

What do you mean fun to use?? Windows is one of the more boring UI's
I've dealt with.

[Joel]

Post by candycanearter07

Post by Joel
That's a good argument until you realize that Winblows *isn't* such a
fantastic desktop OS, in the first place. Fun to use, sure, but only
if you have a very up-to-date computer, even Win10 in realistic terms
requires a lot of power, and 11 grew to be far worse.
Linux is a relief, from the commercial OSes' drag, M$ bloat and Apple
doofiness.

What do you mean fun to use?? Windows is one of the more boring UI's
I've dealt with.

Just that it's intuitively designed, but to a fault, Mint kind of does
that too but with far less bloat, using openSUSE I've really begun to
see computing as a deliberate act, rather than a smooth ride provided
by M$ and Apple. I love it. I don't need them, I don't even need a
"fun" Linux distro, I just need a computer that functions as it's
capable of doing. Am I missing multimedia features? A little. Who
cares, though, I have more important things going on.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[rbowman]

Post by Joel
Just that it's intuitively designed, but to a fault, Mint kind of does
that too but with far less bloat, using openSUSE I've really begun to
see computing as a deliberate act, rather than a smooth ride provided by
M$ and Apple. I love it. I don't need them, I don't even need a "fun"
Linux distro, I just need a computer that functions as it's capable of
doing. Am I missing multimedia features? A little. Who cares, though,
I have more important things going on.

Is OpenSUSE up to KDE/QT/Plasma 6 yet?

[Joel]

Post by rbowman

Post by Joel
Just that it's intuitively designed, but to a fault, Mint kind of does
that too but with far less bloat, using openSUSE I've really begun to
see computing as a deliberate act, rather than a smooth ride provided by
M$ and Apple. I love it. I don't need them, I don't even need a "fun"
Linux distro, I just need a computer that functions as it's capable of
doing. Am I missing multimedia features? A little. Who cares, though,
I have more important things going on.

Is OpenSUSE up to KDE/QT/Plasma 6 yet?

Dunno, I'm using the Xfce DE. I wasn't trying to be picky, I just
needed something that wouldn't control me the way Mint was beginning
to do. No hard feelings toward Mint, though, it's a great distro for
what it is, but I'm happier without it, now.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[rbowman]

Post by Joel
Dunno, I'm using the Xfce DE. I wasn't trying to be picky, I just
needed something that wouldn't control me the way Mint was beginning to
do. No hard feelings toward Mint, though, it's a great distro for what
it is, but I'm happier without it, now.

I've got that on my work Debian box. It's okay. I'd prefer the taskbar on
the bottom. I'm sure it can be done but as I said I pretty much roll with
whatever comes out of the box, unless it's something with a dark theme.

[Joel]

Post by rbowman

Post by Joel
Dunno, I'm using the Xfce DE. I wasn't trying to be picky, I just
needed something that wouldn't control me the way Mint was beginning to
do. No hard feelings toward Mint, though, it's a great distro for what
it is, but I'm happier without it, now.

I've got that on my work Debian box. It's okay. I'd prefer the taskbar on
the bottom. I'm sure it can be done but as I said I pretty much roll with
whatever comes out of the box, unless it's something with a dark theme.

For this setup, it put the taskbar on the bottom.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman

... Mint, [is] a great distro for what> it is, but I'm happier without
it, now.

I've got that on my work Debian box. It's okay. I'd prefer the taskbar
on the bottom.

Remember that Mint comes with a choice of at least 2 different GUIs on
initial installation, and likely others available besides. Which one might
you be referring to?

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman

... Mint, [is] a great distro for what> it is, but I'm happier without
it, now.

I've got that on my work Debian box. It's okay. I'd prefer the taskbar
on the bottom.

Remember that Mint comes with a choice of at least 2 different GUIs on
initial installation, and likely others available besides. Which one
might you be referring to?

joel is running OpenSUSE with xfce and I have Debian with xfce on one box.
Which might you be referring to?

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by Joel
Dunno, I'm using the Xfce DE. I wasn't trying to be picky, I just
needed something that wouldn't control me the way Mint was beginning to
do. No hard feelings toward Mint, though, it's a great distro for what
it is, but I'm happier without it, now.

I've got that on my work Debian box. It's okay. I'd prefer the taskbar on
the bottom. I'm sure it can be done but as I said I pretty much roll with
whatever comes out of the box, unless it's something with a dark theme.

You can move the taskbar, add and remove items from it. Tons o' options.

When I use Xfce (e.g. until I get Fluxbox installed after figuring out issues,
rare, but it has happened) I configure it to be about 90% identical to my
Fluxbox setup. Especially the keystrokes. For window movement, you can even
replace the arrow keys with good ol' hjkl.

Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a vertically-maximized
window unmaximizes it).

The thing I like about Fluxbox is that most of the configuration involves
text files. Xfce does have text files, but they are XML. Ugh.

[rbowman]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a
vertically-maximized window unmaximizes it).

The best thing a desktop can do is leave my damn windows alone.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a
vertically-maximized window unmaximizes it).

The best thing a desktop can do is leave my damn windows alone.

So no tiling window managers for you. :-)

[rbowman]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a
vertically-maximized window unmaximizes it).

The best thing a desktop can do is leave my damn windows alone.

So no tiling window managers for you. :-)

No ratpoison here...

https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/

I forget which distro it was but if the mouse cursor got too close to the
upper left corner it would snap to a desktop view. It took me a while to
figure out

a. what the hell I was doing to cause it
b how to get rid of it.

I just checked. The Fedora/KDE box does it but you have to go to the
extreme corner so I hadn't triggered it unawares. If you scroll in the
taskbar with KDE it cycles through the windows. On Gnome it cycles through
the virtual desktops. I can live with that.

Sigh... While on the Fedora box I saw the updates icon. Another day,
another kernel. I updated yesterday. This one is 6.10.9 so it isn't the
absolute bleeding edge.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a
vertically-maximized window unmaximizes it).

The best thing a desktop can do is leave my damn windows alone.

So no tiling window managers for you. :-)

No ratpoison here...
https://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/
I forget which distro it was but if the mouse cursor got too close to the
upper left corner it would snap to a desktop view. It took me a while to
figure out
a. what the hell I was doing to cause it
b how to get rid of it.
I just checked. The Fedora/KDE box does it but you have to go to the
extreme corner so I hadn't triggered it unawares. If you scroll in the
taskbar with KDE it cycles through the windows. On Gnome it cycles through
the virtual desktops. I can live with that.
Sigh... While on the Fedora box I saw the updates icon. Another day,
another kernel. I updated yesterday. This one is 6.10.9 so it isn't the
absolute bleeding edge.

I've downloaded Manjaro (based on Arch) and I purchased a no-name 512Gb SSD for
about $28 bucks. Why Manjaro? Don't feel like trudging through the console
setup process for Arch for this old ASUS laptop.

Plus unfa uses/used it. Thought about some audio/midi-production-oriented
distros like Ubuntu Studio and AV Linux.

[RonB]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Xfce does have a couple things that bug me (e.g. moving a
vertically-maximized window unmaximizes it).

The best thing a desktop can do is leave my damn windows alone.

So no tiling window managers for you. :-)

Definitely not. It's one of the first things I turn off in a new Linux Mint
Cinnamon install.

[rbowman]

Post by RonB
Definitely not. It's one of the first things I turn off in a new Linux
Mint Cinnamon install.

https://betanews.com/2024/09/12/linux-desktop-environment-cinnamon-6-4-
aims-to-fix-its-outdated-look-with-a-fresh-default-theme/

"Linux Mint has long been praised for its user-friendly design, with the
Cinnamon desktop being a core feature. However, Cinnamon's look outside
the Mint distro often leaves users unimpressed. In many distributions,
Cinnamon’s default visual style feels outdated and unrefined, giving the
impression that its aesthetics have been neglected."

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
Definitely not. It's one of the first things I turn off in a new Linux
Mint Cinnamon install.

https://betanews.com/2024/09/12/linux-desktop-environment-cinnamon-6-4-
aims-to-fix-its-outdated-look-with-a-fresh-default-theme/
"Linux Mint has long been praised for its user-friendly design, with the
Cinnamon desktop being a core feature. However, Cinnamon's look outside
the Mint distro often leaves users unimpressed. In many distributions,
Cinnamon’s default visual style feels outdated and unrefined, giving the
impression that its aesthetics have been neglected."
Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Ugh.

Also from the article...

Distributions are generally expected to improve and customize desktop
environments to fit their style. Yet, many opt to stick with default
settings, focus on other desktop environments, or fail to invest in
making Cinnamon look more attractive. This leads to Cinnamon being
overlooked in favor of more visually refined options like GNOME or KDE
Plasma.

With all due respect, Gnome (to me) is a convoluted mess and KDE is
gimmicky. And, since Linux Mint's default desktop is Cinnamon and Linux Mint
is one of the most popular distributions out there, I don't think Cinnamon
is being *that* "overlooked."

What article writers like this man really mean, when they write this kind of
stuff, is they're projecting their own preferences on to the general public.
And we're supposed to be "shamed" because we don't want to "change Cinnamon
to make it more attractive" — in their myopic opinion? As if the writer's
taste in desktops is the end all, beat all.

Hopefully I'll still be able to use the Cinnamon Legacy theme, which is what
I prefer.

[rbowman]

Post by candycanearter07
What do you mean fun to use?? Windows is one of the more boring UI's
I've dealt with.

I never thought of an OS as being fun to use. I've learned to live with it
but the Ubuntu box with Gnome is my least favorite when it come to
presentation. I prefer the Fedora KDE spin and Lubuntu, which look a lot
like Windows when you get down to it.

True, I spend about zero time configuring the desktop.

[rbowman]

Post by DFS
Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
glorified dumb terminals.

[Joel]

Post by rbowman

Post by DFS
Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
glorified dumb terminals.

The corporate-software drones may be going that way, I sure as hell am
not. I hate the concept of an app running in the cloud, how is that
not a downgrade? It would make sense for a video game, not for a
business app. And the AI crap is just laughable, "Copilot" my ass, I
assembled my computer and I can assemble knowledge, without an
overgrown bot spouting data to me.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[rbowman]

Post by Joel

Post by rbowman

Post by DFS
Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

In an era of SaaS and cloud based applications most desktops have become
glorified dumb terminals.

The corporate-software drones may be going that way, I sure as hell am
not. I hate the concept of an app running in the cloud, how is that not
a downgrade? It would make sense for a video game, not for a business
app. And the AI crap is just laughable, "Copilot" my ass, I assembled
my computer and I can assemble knowledge, without an overgrown bot
spouting data to me.

I'm not a fan of cloud based apps like Microsoft 360. The software I
worked on ran on local servers (private cloud) but did the app was browser
based. There are advantages particularly for configuration and updates.

How much of what you consume is running on a server someplace? This
newsgroup? Youtube, spotify, jango, news feeds, maps, documentation,
blogs, social media? When I put together a Python script to measure
instances using a Pico and put the results on a small OLED using the I2C
interface, it's all local. I could pull the plug on the router. However,
I'm looking up the documentation on the web, downloading the MicroPython
interpreter, and so forth.

IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

[Relf]

rBowman: IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

Win11 running "Voice Access" ( fast, accurate, customizable, offline, free )
on a 4k, 32" monitor swinging on an arm, a massively customized browser,
a hyper customized 39 button mouse, no physical keyboard ( boots to BIOS ),
super fast NVMe M.2 terabyte SSD, half terabyte USB stick
& full control of everything is best.

You can't get that on a kiosk, especially not big, "hyper customized" stuff.

[DFS]

Post by Relf
rBowman: IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.
Win11 running "Voice Access" ( fast, accurate, customizable, offline, free )
on a 4k, 32" monitor swinging on an arm, a massively customized browser,
a hyper customized 39 button mouse, no physical keyboard ( boots to BIOS ),
super fast NVMe M.2 terabyte SSD, half terabyte USB stick
& full control of everything is best.
You can't get that on a kiosk, especially not big, "hyper customized" stuff.

monitor on swingarm and no keyboard? Do you do all your computing lying
in bed typing on a touchscreen?

If so, get up out of bed and start exercising before you die.

[Relf]

DFS: Do you do all your computing lying in bed typing on a touchscreen ?

No touchscreen; see: Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG
"Words per Minute" measures sexytaries, not me.

Post by DFS
start exercising before you die.

Charlie Munger Was going strong ( mentally, not physically )
up until the age of 99.

[Joel]

Post by Relf
DFS: Do you do all your computing lying in bed typing on a touchscreen ?
No touchscreen; see: Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG
"Words per Minute" measures sexytaries, not me.

Christ, Jeff, you type with your fucking mouse? What are you,
Hawking?
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[Relf]

Crump: you type with your fucking mouse ?

I use a custom designed virtual keyboard,
Win11's "Voice Access" does most of the work.

Voice Access is fast, accurate, customizable, offline, free.

I've a 4k, 32" monitor swinging on an arm, a massively customized browser,
a hyper customized 39 button mouse, no physical keyboard ( boots to BIOS ),
super fast NVMe M.2 terabyte SSD, half terabyte USB stick
& full control of everything.

[Joel]

Post by Relf
Crump: you type with your fucking mouse ?
I use a custom designed virtual keyboard,
Win11's "Voice Access" does most of the work.
Voice Access is fast, accurate, customizable, offline, free.
I've a 4k, 32" monitor swinging on an arm, a massively customized browser,
a hyper customized 39 button mouse, no physical keyboard ( boots to BIOS ),
super fast NVMe M.2 terabyte SSD, half terabyte USB stick
& full control of everything.

I have a 4K monitor, not as large as yours though, and NVMe storage of
course. My keyboard and mouse are wired and basic, as I like them to
be. My system was all chosen piece by piece, by me, it's such a
dream.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[rbowman]

Post by Joel

Post by Relf
DFS: Do you do all your computing lying in bed typing on a touchscreen ?
No touchscreen; see: Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG "Words per
Minute" measures sexytaries, not me.

Christ, Jeff, you type with your fucking mouse? What are you,
Hawking?

Chuck Moore. He showed up at a FORTH conference in the early '80s with a
one-handed mouse that he had invented. It didn't catch on. It wasn't a
gaming keyboard, only a mouse-like thing with a lot of buttons that were
used sort of like guitar chords.

[Joel]

Post by rbowman

Post by Joel

Post by Relf
DFS: Do you do all your computing lying in bed typing on a touchscreen ?
No touchscreen; see: Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG "Words per
Minute" measures sexytaries, not me.

Christ, Jeff, you type with your fucking mouse? What are you,
Hawking?

Chuck Moore. He showed up at a FORTH conference in the early '80s with a
one-handed mouse that he had invented. It didn't catch on. It wasn't a
gaming keyboard, only a mouse-like thing with a lot of buttons that were
used sort of like guitar chords.

Sounds interesting.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[%]

Post by Joel

Post by rbowman

Post by Joel

Post by Relf
DFS: Do you do all your computing lying in bed typing on a touchscreen ?
No touchscreen; see: Jeff-Relf.Me/MouseKeyboardLayout.PNG "Words per
Minute" measures sexytaries, not me.

Christ, Jeff, you type with your fucking mouse? What are you,
Hawking?

Chuck Moore. He showed up at a FORTH conference in the early '80s with a
one-handed mouse that he had invented. It didn't catch on. It wasn't a
gaming keyboard, only a mouse-like thing with a lot of buttons that were
used sort of like guitar chords.

Sounds interesting.

never happened

[rbowman]

Post by %
never happened

You were at University of Rochester in 1982 for the conference? Take
another oxy.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman
IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design
is the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

I keep wondering about that. The obvious difference is, a Chromebook is
built around a web browser, which is the single most complex piece of
software that normal people use on a daily basis. Dumb terminals were
never like that.

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design
is the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

I keep wondering about that. The obvious difference is, a Chromebook is
built around a web browser, which is the single most complex piece of
software that normal people use on a daily basis. Dumb terminals were
never like that.

It's true the ADM-3A wasn't a mental giant but it wasn't bad for a
straight TTL design. Even the VT100 with its 8080 processor didn't do
much.

The web browser approach poses an interesting question. Leaving out Apple
and their trailing edge WebKit, V8/Blink is dominant. V8 by itself is
sued in Electron, Node.js, and a long list of browsers. They are all cross
platform. Brave doesn't care if it's on Linux or Windows. VS Code uses
Electron, so it doesn't care either. x86 ARM, or even MIPS, no problem.

You might see where this is going. For many people the OS becomes
irrelevant.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Leaving out Apple and their trailing edge WebKit, V8/Blink is dominant.
V8 by itself is [us]ed in Electron, Node.js, and a long list of
browsers. They are all cross platform. Brave doesn't care if it's on
Linux or Windows. VS Code uses Electron, so it doesn't care either. x86
ARM, or even MIPS, no problem.

The difference is, a web browser engine is a fiendishly complex piece of
software that requires ongoing maintenance as new bugs (particularly
security vulnerabilities) make themselves known. Unlike a dumb terminal,
that you could buy once and use for at least a few years without having to
worry about upgrades.

[Relf]

rBowman: For many people the OS becomes irrelevant.

I'm not "many people".

Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

[rbowman]

Post by Relf
rBowman: For many people the OS becomes irrelevant.
I'm not "many people".
Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

I had a friend like you. He lusted after a .454 Casull and was the
happiest guy in the world when he finally got one.

That became his new song when the .500 S&W Magnum came out.

[Relf]

Post by Relf
Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

rBowman: [ Half inch, 12.7 mm, caliber bullets ]

I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Relf
I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

Constructive tools like computers are far more useful than destructive
weapons.

[RonB]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Relf
I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

Constructive tools like computers are far more useful than destructive
weapons.

Different purposes. A computer is not going to do you a whole lot of good if
a murdering thief breaks into your house.

[rbowman]

Post by Relf

Post by Relf
Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

rBowman: [ Half inch, 12.7 mm, caliber bullets ]

I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

Some people just want BIGGER things. Computer, cars, houses, bullets,
dicks...

In this case .500 is a practical limit since the Feds have decreed a .510
diameter bullet is a destructive device.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

The point is a tool should be selected for the job at hand, not because it
is BIGGER.

[Relf]

Post by Relf
I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

a tool should be selected for the job at hand, not because it is BIGGER.

Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a
WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large monitor.

[rbowman]

Post by Relf
I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

a tool should be selected for the job at hand, not because it is BIGGER.

Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large
monitor.

Still using a CRT? Obviously we're talking about two different versions
of BIGGER. Both my Debian and Fedora boxes are traditional towers. This
Ubuntu box is about as big as a ham sandwich.

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by Relf
I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

a tool should be selected for the job at hand, not because it is BIGGER.

Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large
monitor.

Still using a CRT? Obviously we're talking about two different versions
of BIGGER. Both my Debian and Fedora boxes are traditional towers. This
Ubuntu box is about as big as a ham sandwich.

My desktop computers are Dell Micro desktops (using laptop components and
laptop power supplies). Very quiet and small. For what I do, I see no reason
to ever go to a tower computer again. (I don't play Microsoft video games or
compile programs and these do everything I need to do and they do it well.)

[rbowman]

Post by RonB
My desktop computers are Dell Micro desktops (using laptop components
and laptop power supplies). Very quiet and small. For what I do, I see
no reason to ever go to a tower computer again. (I don't play Microsoft
video games or compile programs and these do everything I need to do and
they do it well.)

It isn't a Micro but the last batch of Dells at work are quite a bit
smaller than the previous generation from 6 or 8 years ago. They have no
problem compiling complex apps.

The improvements were incremental but there was a watershed a few years
back between when compiling the source tree was time to get a cup of
coffee and browse the web and when it became fast enough it wasn't
worthwhile to do something else. That's the real measure of productivity
rather than sitting there with a stopwatch.

Judging from the buildapc subreddit it's the gamers that are driving the
high end components. As a bonus you apparently get a space heater too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1ff66ib/
my_pc_turns_my_room_into_a_furnac

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
My desktop computers are Dell Micro desktops (using laptop components
and laptop power supplies). Very quiet and small. For what I do, I see
no reason to ever go to a tower computer again. (I don't play Microsoft
video games or compile programs and these do everything I need to do and
they do it well.)

It isn't a Micro but the last batch of Dells at work are quite a bit
smaller than the previous generation from 6 or 8 years ago. They have no
problem compiling complex apps.
The improvements were incremental but there was a watershed a few years
back between when compiling the source tree was time to get a cup of
coffee and browse the web and when it became fast enough it wasn't
worthwhile to do something else. That's the real measure of productivity
rather than sitting there with a stopwatch.
Judging from the buildapc subreddit it's the gamers that are driving the
high end components. As a bonus you apparently get a space heater too.
https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1ff66ib/
my_pc_turns_my_room_into_a_furnac

Yeah, two of my kids share a room with gaming computers. It's always "too
hot" in that room for them. And these are not the "super, whiz, bang"
game computers that some people seem to "need."

Dell makes much more powerful micros than the ones I use, but they're all
packed in a 7" x 7" x 1.5" container. I would imagine the fans would run
more on the high-end ones. I also note that these newer ones require "heat
tape" on added to their SSDs. I like cool, low power consumption, computers.
But, again, I have no "high end" needs.

[chrisv]

Post by Relf
Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a
WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large monitor.

Towers are *the* way to go! 8) A "mid-tower" for me.

[chrisv]

Post by chrisv

Post by Relf
Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a
WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large monitor.

Towers are *the* way to go! 8) A "mid-tower" for me.

And the large monitor, of course. The 55" monitor in my "man cave" is
awesome!

[rbowman]

Post by chrisv

Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large
monitor.

Towers are *the* way to go! 8) A "mid-tower" for me.

Why? That's an honest question not an argument. The Fedora box is an old
Dell tower because I had it on hand. I also have an Antec case and power
supply that I thought about using for a build. With NVMe M.2 I don't need
those drive bays. I've got a USB optical drive if I need one but I seldom
plug it in. There's a lot of empty volume as is. I don't need all the
slots so I could go with micro-ATX.

The tower does give me a nice flat space for the solderless breadboards of
whatever project I'm working on, so that's a plus.

[chrisv]

Post by rbowman

Post by chrisv
Towers are *the* way to go! 8) A "mid-tower" for me.

Why? That's an honest question not an argument. The Fedora box is an old
Dell tower because I had it on hand. I also have an Antec case and power
supply that I thought about using for a build. With NVMe M.2 I don't need
those drive bays. I've got a USB optical drive if I need one but I seldom
plug it in. There's a lot of empty volume as is. I don't need all the
slots so I could go with micro-ATX.

Of course you're right that a tiny computer could do the job just
fine, for most people. I'm old and set in my ways. It's nice to have
room for a video card, in case I ever want to play a game, which I
rarely do. It's just more fun, similar to the satisfaction I get by
building it myself.

[rbowman]

Of course you're right that a tiny computer could do the job just fine,
for most people. I'm old and set in my ways.

I'm old but I guess I'm not quite set yet. It all started when we got a
Mac mini to build a phone app. Programming and testing stood around the
unboxing poking at it wondering what we were supposed to do with it. I was
fascinated.

I never did a build with it but it ran headless and only was used by the
build guy. The iOS project eventually got scrapped because of the endless
hoops dealing with Apple.

The first non-Macs to show up on my radar were the Intel NUCs but I'm not
an Intel fan. When I saw a Beelink with an AMD I jumped on it. Now
everybody is in the game, except Intel. Dropping the NUCs may be another
of their less than stellar decisions although the marketing wasn't great.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
although the marketing wasn't great.

Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably lost
money on every one they sold.

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
although the marketing wasn't great.

Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably lost
money on every one they sold.

I might go along with overpriced but most variations weren't in the same
league as the Pi. That's not taking anything away from the Pi but it's a
whole different game. From the reviews the Pi 5 is almost acceptable as a
general purpose desktop but that still isn't what its principle purpose
is.

[Joel]

Post by chrisv

Post by Relf
Ever since 1983, I've enjoyed a
WinTel tower PC With a mouse & a large monitor.

Towers are *the* way to go! 8) A "mid-tower" for me.

I certainly have a vertical case, for my box. It sits on a stand on
the left side of my desk, purchased at IKEA. I need that full desktop
experience, can't hang with laptops, can't just use my phone. I need
the complete experience, like in the old days, keyboard, mouse,
monitor, speakers. I stay with that motif.
--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman
In this case .500 is a practical limit since the Feds have decreed a
.510 diameter bullet is a destructive device.

Wow ... non-destructive bullets. Whatever will they think of next.

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
In this case .500 is a practical limit since the Feds have decreed a
.510 diameter bullet is a destructive device.

Wow ... non-destructive bullets. Whatever will they think of next.

https://simunition.com/

They've been around for a long time.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by Relf

Post by Relf
Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

rBowman: [ Half inch, 12.7 mm, caliber bullets ]

I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

Some people just want BIGGER things. Computer, cars, houses, bullets,
dicks...
In this case .500 is a practical limit since the Feds have decreed a .510
diameter bullet is a destructive device.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

Buh buh the 2nd Amendment! They're infringing on my right to bear arms!
Whut if the gummint comes to git me?!

Post by rbowman
The point is a tool should be selected for the job at hand, not because it
is BIGGER.

A good opportunity to reprise the Hole Hawg:

http://www.team.net/mjb/hawg.html

[chrisv]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

Buh buh the 2nd Amendment! They're infringing on my right to bear arms!
Whut if the gummint comes to git me?!

Lame attack. Freedom does not equal anarchy.

[rbowman]

Post by chrisv

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

Buh buh the 2nd Amendment! They're infringing on my right to bear arms!
Whut if the gummint comes to git me?!

Lame attack. Freedom does not equal anarchy.

Government doesn't equal freedom either. It's been a lifelong internal
debate for me. Theoretically I lean toward anarchy. Then I look around me
and realize it will never happen on any scale above a village.

[Relf]

rBowman: Theoretically I lean toward anarchy. Then I look around me
and realize it will never happen on any scale above a village.

Missoula is East Seattle, i90.

All 9 of its sawmills were shut down, one this year,
because "housing" ( a.k.a. "indoor plumbing" ) is unaffordable.

[rbowman]

Post by Relf
Missoula is East Seattle, i90.

The shit stops at Spokane. Lookout Pass makes a great choke point.

Post by Relf
All 9 of its sawmills were shut down, one this year,
because "housing" ( a.k.a. "indoor plumbing" ) is unaffordable.

Housing is ridiculous but the mills shut down long before the current
inflation. Some of it was Canadian imports, some was running out of
accessible timber. The low hanging fruit was cut 50 years ago and it takes
about 100 years for the renewable crop to renew.

There is a trail going back to the government giveaways to the railroads
that includes Champion, Plum Creek, and now Weyerhauser. Weyerhauser is
now in the real estate business, not timber around here. Can't beat the
southern plantations.

https://www.weyerhaeuser.com/timberlands/forestry/us-south/

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman
Government doesn't equal freedom either.

“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the
others.”
-- Winston Churchill

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
Government doesn't equal freedom either.

“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the
others.”
-- Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill, Destroyer of Empires. The bastard should have retired
to a life of obscurity after Gallipoli. How many Kiwis did he kill, 2700
or so?

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
Government doesn't equal freedom either.

“Democracy is the worst system in the world ... apart from all the
others.”
-- Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill, Destroyer of Empires.

At least he was never a slave-owner.

Another quote: “We can trust our friends the Americans to do the right
thing ... after they have tried everything else.”

[RonB]

Post by chrisv

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

Buh buh the 2nd Amendment! They're infringing on my right to bear arms!
Whut if the gummint comes to git me?!

Lame attack. Freedom does not equal anarchy.

Explaining things to ChrisA is pretty much a waste of time. All he knows how
to do is regurgitate CNN and the rest of the MSM. Thinking is not required
to do this and he finds it hurts his head when he tries to do so.

"Toothless" "Buh buh" still has working brain cells and that makes ChrisA
jealous of him.

[rbowman]

Post by RonB
Explaining things to ChrisA is pretty much a waste of time. All he knows
how to do is regurgitate CNN and the rest of the MSM. Thinking is not
required to do this and he finds it hurts his head when he tries to do
so.
"Toothless" "Buh buh" still has working brain cells and that makes
ChrisA jealous of him.

They're expanding on Clinton's 'basket of deplorables'. Romney wasn't any
better with his 47% remark. The political class despises their
'constituents' except for the kabuki theater every two or four years when
they have to pretend.

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
Explaining things to ChrisA is pretty much a waste of time. All he knows
how to do is regurgitate CNN and the rest of the MSM. Thinking is not
required to do this and he finds it hurts his head when he tries to do
so.
"Toothless" "Buh buh" still has working brain cells and that makes
ChrisA jealous of him.

They're expanding on Clinton's 'basket of deplorables'. Romney wasn't any
better with his 47% remark. The political class despises their
'constituents' except for the kabuki theater every two or four years when
they have to pretend.

Yep. I put Romney in the same category as Cheney and Clinton. Neo-CONS who
want to make money for the "Deep State" with endless wars.

Romney, coming from a leverage buyout past, makes him particularly slimy.
Almost as slimy as Clinton and Cheney (and Biden and Kamala Harris).

[rbowman]

Post by RonB
Yep. I put Romney in the same category as Cheney and Clinton. Neo-CONS
who want to make money for the "Deep State" with endless wars.
Romney, coming from a leverage buyout past, makes him particularly
slimy. Almost as slimy as Clinton and Cheney (and Biden and Kamala
Harris).

I've been down on Romneys since my father bought a '62 Rambler Classic.
Part of the appeal was it still had 15" wheels when most were going to
14". He didn't like little wheels. He'd had enough by '65 and bought a
Dodge, which was a personal record in turning over a car.

George HW Bush, both Clintons, Gore, McCain, Romney, Obama, both Cheneys,
Biden, Harris, and so forth exude more slime than a semi full of garden
slugs. W was just a dumb placeholder for Cheney.

In short, copious slime is a bipartisan feature.

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
Yep. I put Romney in the same category as Cheney and Clinton. Neo-CONS
who want to make money for the "Deep State" with endless wars.
Romney, coming from a leverage buyout past, makes him particularly
slimy. Almost as slimy as Clinton and Cheney (and Biden and Kamala
Harris).

I've been down on Romneys since my father bought a '62 Rambler Classic.
Part of the appeal was it still had 15" wheels when most were going to
14". He didn't like little wheels. He'd had enough by '65 and bought a
Dodge, which was a personal record in turning over a car.
George HW Bush, both Clintons, Gore, McCain, Romney, Obama, both Cheneys,
Biden, Harris, and so forth exude more slime than a semi full of garden
slugs. W was just a dumb placeholder for Cheney.
In short, copious slime is a bipartisan feature.

Completely agree.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
Explaining things to ChrisA is pretty much a waste of time. All he knows
how to do is regurgitate CNN and the rest of the MSM. Thinking is not
required to do this and he finds it hurts his head when he tries to do
so.
"Toothless" "Buh buh" still has working brain cells and that makes
ChrisA jealous of him.

:-D 1.5/10 on the troll-o-meter, RonB.

Post by rbowman
They're expanding on Clinton's 'basket of deplorables'. Romney wasn't any
better with his 47% remark. The political class despises their
'constituents' except for the kabuki theater every two or four years when
they have to pretend.

Clinton was right.

Otherwise no way this demented, mean-spirited orange clown would be the leading
Republican candidate in *three* election cycles.

(Apologies to vallor :-)

[rbowman]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Otherwise no way this demented, mean-spirited orange clown would be the
leading Republican candidate in *three* election cycles.

I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got. The
GOP as defined by the #nevertrump crowd has nothing for me. He is too good
a man to be a president but the last Democrat I might have voted for was
Carter. I've mislaid part of the '70s so I doubt I did vote.

[RonB]

Post by rbowman

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
Otherwise no way this demented, mean-spirited orange clown would be the
leading Republican candidate in *three* election cycles.

I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got. The
GOP as defined by the #nevertrump crowd has nothing for me. He is too good
a man to be a president but the last Democrat I might have voted for was
Carter. I've mislaid part of the '70s so I doubt I did vote.

I remember when Reagan first ran for president. They said his divorce should
keep him from being elected president. Now we have a woman who slept her way
into politics with a married man, and a man who's been with, I don't know
how many women. In the past we had Bill Clinton, a sleaze, as president and
his vicious wife who attacked the women Clinton assaulted, who ran for
president. None of them are worth a tinker's damn — and none of them would
get my vote.

About the only person I would vote for today would be Tulsi Gabbard and,
unfortunately, she's not running. Of course the sleazy Democrats threw her
under the bridge. She had too much integrity for them.

[rbowman]

Post by RonB
I remember when Reagan first ran for president. They said his divorce
should keep him from being elected president. Now we have a woman who
slept her way into politics with a married man, and a man who's been
with, I don't know how many women. In the past we had Bill Clinton, a
sleaze, as president and his vicious wife who attacked the women Clinton
assaulted, who ran for president. None of them are worth a tinker's damn
— and none of them would get my vote.

In '63 Nelson Rockefeller dumped his wife and married Happy. Most people
in NYS shrugged and figured he had traded up. The liberal branch had been
labeled 'Rockefeller Republicans' and Prescott Bush was on the bandwagon
-- until the divorce. Rockefeller was supposed to be the shoe-in in '64
until Bush torpedoed him. Goldwater got the nomination and lost
spectacularly. Montana has went blue twice and that was one of them. The
other time wasn't for love of Clinton but the Republicans lost too many
voters to Perot.

Rockefeller went on to serve 4 terms as governor and was very popular
although the Attica fiasco was counted against him. In '74 he became
Ford's vice president. Rumsfeld and the equally odious GHW Bush were on
the short list but Ford prevailed.

Post by RonB
About the only person I would vote for today would be Tulsi Gabbard and,
unfortunately, she's not running. Of course the sleazy Democrats threw
her under the bridge. She had too much integrity for them.

Lèse-majesté against Queen Hillary is an capital offense.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman
I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.

All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two parties
to vote for.

And those running for election are not the ones running the election.

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.

All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two parties
to vote for.

We have independent candidates.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/us/politics/presidential-candidates-2024.html

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
And those running for election are not the ones running the election.

That's not the case in the US either. Quit your ignorant babbling.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.

All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two
parties to vote for.

We have independent candidates.

But nobody gives them a serious chance of making a dent against your
Tweedledum/Tweedledee duopoly.

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
And those running for election are not the ones running the election.

That's not the case in the US either.

Look up “gerrymandering”.

[rbowman]

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.

All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two
parties to vote for.

We have independent candidates.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/us/politics/presidential-

candidates-2024.html

At least I got to see the five before the paywall kicked in.

https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/1835113522193371330

I follow Stein and apparently the Democrats aren't content with screwing
Bernie and Tulsi but are trying to get the Greens kicked of the ballot.

"PRESS RELEASE: The Montana Libertarian Party strongly condemns the recent
lawsuit filed by the @MTDems aimed at removing the @GreenPartyUS
Senatorial candidate from the ballot. This legal maneuver undermines the
“democratic process” and stifles the voices of voters who deserve a full
spectrum of choices in their elections."

Oddly the Montana LP X account has never uttered the name "Chase Oliver".
I think that was a bridge too far.

If that doesn't work you can always just shoot the opposition. The latest
shooter is connected with the International Volunteer Center in the
Ukraine. That certainly smells like a Christians In Action op.

Then there's West/Abdulla campaign. I was surprised to find they are on
the ballot in 16 states. This isn't one of them.

[rbowman]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by rbowman
I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.

All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two
parties to vote for.
And those running for election are not the ones running the election.

Oh, we have the Greens and Libertarians... Wait a minute -- you did say
realistic didn't you?

Democracy: periodically selecting figureheads that aren't going to do what
they promised by counting noses of people I wouldn't trust to reliably
feed the cat. Note I said 'feed' not 'eat' but you never can tell.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by rbowman
Democracy: periodically selecting figureheads that aren't going to do
what they promised by counting noses of people I wouldn't trust to
reliably feed the cat.

There are countries that do it better than you. Why not learn from them?

[RonB]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by rbowman

Post by RonB
Explaining things to ChrisA is pretty much a waste of time. All he knows
how to do is regurgitate CNN and the rest of the MSM. Thinking is not
required to do this and he finds it hurts his head when he tries to do
so.
"Toothless" "Buh buh" still has working brain cells and that makes
ChrisA jealous of him.

:-D 1.5/10 on the troll-o-meter, RonB.

Post by rbowman
They're expanding on Clinton's 'basket of deplorables'. Romney wasn't any
better with his 47% remark. The political class despises their
'constituents' except for the kabuki theater every two or four years when
they have to pretend.

Clinton was right.
Otherwise no way this demented, mean-spirited orange clown would be the leading
Republican candidate in *three* election cycles.

Really. Trump is the "mean spirited" one when Hillary Clinton shamed women
who had been raped by her pervert husband and cackled when she heard that
Qaddafi had been brutally murdered. She's a vicious and worthless hag. And
you have the gall to project Hillary Clinton's vicious evil on Trump? What a
gullible, Woke moron you are when it comes to politics. You're just a useful
idiot, part of the braindead Left.

Post by Chris Ahlstrom
(Apologies to vallor :-)

[%]

Post by Relf

Post by Relf
Give me BIGGER, more customized gear.

rBowman: [ Half inch, 12.7 mm, caliber bullets ]

I don't see what a "big" PC (compared to a "smart" phone)
has to do with bigger bullets.

the total tonnage of what you don't see ...

[chrisv]

Post by rbowman
IBM's model was always big iron with dumb terminals, thin clients, or
whatever you want to call it. Pretty much the entire Chromebook design is
the same. Desktops are getting to be the same.

Which is why, I guess, they need a dozen 5 GHz CPU's running in
parallel. 8)

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by DFS
Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,

And yet not so big, if 33 million Adobe users can be such a significant
part of that.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

Nope. The smartphone is larger. And it's dominated by android first. By
Apple second. And Windows is nowhere to be seen.

I don't speak about Linux because Android is based on Linux but it's
Windows in spirit. But nevertheless, the largest segment of computing is
not dominated by Windows.

Post by DFS
Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here.

Nope. The servers allow the Desktop computers to see themselves. So the
Desktop computers are the reason we are using computers at home. But the
servers are the only reason we can use our desktops to speak together.
And the servers are dominated by Linux.

Post by DFS
So why do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

I don't, but the interesting part about the supercomputers in the world
is real. Because where there is supercomputers, there is real money. So
if they chose Linux, Windows, Apple, BSD, solaris, AIX or whatever, it's
for technical reasons, not to avoid some licence cost. Because when they
spend billions on computer it's to use them, not to brag about them.

So, if every supercomputer is using Linux, it's not because it's fancy,
it's because they all consider it's technically superior. It's because
they know what they do. So you can give any phoronix article about how
ubuntu with gnome is far from superior to Windows as you want: they are
not installing ubuntu with gnome and with every useless shiny crap for
beginners. They are installing Linux with only what's required to run
their computers. With a good management of ressources. Which Windows
doesn't allow them to: if Windows was as good as Linux for that, some
would know it and use Windows on some supercomputers.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Stéphane CARPENTIER

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by DFS
You do not lose control of your docs when your Adobe (or MS 365)
subscription ends or you stop paying.

You can only open them read-only. You can no longer work with them. You
cannot even export them to a nonproprietary format.
If that’s not “losing control”, tell me what your idea of “control over
your own work” is.

Post by DFS

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
So I rephrase my claim slightly: “Adobe is an irrelevance to 98% of
Windows users”.

So?

So Adobe users are a minority of a minority. In the whole wide (Linux-
dominated) world of computing, they add up to a rounding error.

Desktop computing is the largest, most important segment of computing,
and Windows has completely dominated it since 1990 or so.

Nope. The smartphone is larger. And it's dominated by android first. By
Apple second. And Windows is nowhere to be seen.
I don't speak about Linux because Android is based on Linux but it's
Windows in spirit. But nevertheless, the largest segment of computing is
not dominated by Windows.

Post by DFS
Desktops are the ONLY reason any of us, including you, are here.

Nope. The servers allow the Desktop computers to see themselves. So the
Desktop computers are the reason we are using computers at home. But the
servers are the only reason we can use our desktops to speak together.
And the servers are dominated by Linux.

Post by DFS
So why do you Linux lusers always babble about the paltry number of
supercomputers in the world?

Because supercomputers (mainframes, servers) handle large numbers of connected
systems.

We're not lusers, by the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luser

Before the popularization of the Internet in the 1990s, Internet slang
defined a luser (sometimes expanded to local user; also luzer or luzzer) as
a painfully annoying, stupid, or irritating computer user. The word is a
blend of "loser" and "user". Among hackers, the word luser takes on a
broad meaning, referring to any normal user (in other words, not a "guru"),
with the implication the person is also a loser. The term is partially
interchangeable with the hacker term lamer.

The term can also signify a layman with only user account privileges, as
opposed to a power user or administrator, who has knowledge of, and access
to, superuser accounts; for example, an end luser who cannot be trusted
with a root account for system administration. It is popular with technical
support staff who have to deal with lusers as part of their job, often
metaphorically employing a LART (Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool, also
known as a clue-by-four, cluestick, or cluebat), meaning turning off the
user's access to computer resources and the like.

Post by Stéphane CARPENTIER
<brevsnip>

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Reluctance to move on isn't only in the Linux world.
https://www.theregister.com/2024/09/02/windows_11_market_share/?td=rt-3a
Windows 10 64.14 percent
Windows 11 31.63 percent

The gamers have switched, according to
<https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/2/24234091/microsoft-windows-11-popular-steam-pc-gaming-survey>.

And Microsoft is going to charge the businesses that want to stick to
Windows 10 for the privilege. If they are willing to become an extra
source of revenue, why not?