Reposted in COLA because it is brilliant.

[CrudeSausage]

    On balance I think the way Mint does it (still shipping
    with the older kernel) is better.
If your machine is relatively new, then Linux Mint 22 is a better fit.
There may still be some support items not working yet. My hardware
monitor
sensors, still cannot be read out on three boards. If a kernel claims
to be a HWE (hardware enablement kernel), that can provide better
support for bleeding edge hardware (your new NPU and machine learning
setup).
Those choices should come closer to a friendly environment.

    I tried Mint once. I didn't get past the kiddie folder icons.
I actually like Suse. It's very polished compared to most versions.
It also has a good software selection. Though the firewall I finally
got working, opensnitch, was only available through less direct
channels. The Suse packages are really just the basics.
   I think the "distro" wars misses the point. There's no magical
version that solves the Linux problem. They're all moving
targets, under construction, not well designed for Desktop.
People always say, "Oh, well, you must not have tried AceAndAcme
Linux. It's the cat's pajamas." No. None of them are the cat's pajamas.
   In more recent times, the half-baked geek versions have been
joined by solid versions "your gandmother could use". But that's
also not a solution. It's just two extremes. It's based on the typical
Linux devotee thinking that people are divided into hardcore geeks
and grandmothers. (Possibly those are the only people that these
geeks know.) The niche that Windows fills is the giant area in between --
a system with tremendous software options, great backward
compatibility, and supported levels of expertise, so that a non-geek
office worker or a "power user" can both get Windows to do what
they want. And what they want can be a great variety of things.
  Linux lacks the software. It lacks the power user level or even
the business level. It lacks
backward compatibility. I'm still writing software in VB6, which
came out 25 years ago, and my software runs on every Windows
computer. Macs typically support 2 years back. Linux... forget it.
It's far too complicated to even update a program except through
a package manager. The old version needed abc.dll v. 1.5.6.3243.17
and the new version refuses to run without v. 1.5.6.3243.18. Typically
there are 20 cases like that. Zero backward compatibility. There's
no need. Because no one is actually using this software for anything
except to upgrade the last version. It's all just a geek conversation.
  Anyone actually using Linux, who's not a computer scientist, is
probably just using Firefox and Libre Office. And Grandma doesn't
even need Libre Office. The whole paradigm is a mess.
  My favorite current example of this travesty is when I installed
Xubuntu on my new computer, as part of a wide ranging experiment
last winter. It set up OK, though it was barebones and ugly. But there
was one detail: I couldn't set the clock and the displayed time was
wrong. I looked all over. There were options for display style and
such, but no option to just set the time. I searched online and finally
found a discussion with the man who had written the clock code. He
didn't include an option to set the time in the settings UI because he
prefers command line! These people say these things proudly, with
no awareness of how bratty and dysfunctional they sound. "You
wanted a floor in your new addition? Personally I prefer unfinished
plywood subfloor, so that's what I did. Just don't walk around barefoot.
Splinters. Oh, and the subfloor on the east side of the room is not
nailed down. That's handy to be able to reach the plumbing underneath
since I didn't insulate and pipes could freeze. Enjoy. :)"

[chrisv]

(trolling snipped)

Yet millions choose to use GNU/Linux. Millsions more would if it
weren't for the FUBAR market and the FUD.

[CrudeSausage]

Post by chrisv

(trolling snipped)

Yet millions choose to use GNU/Linux. Millsions more would if it
weren't for the FUBAR market and the FUD.

You can disagree all you want, but he's not saying things some of us
haven't experienced when using Linux. Things tend to improve when the
people working on a product actually listen to their users rather than
telling them that they're using it wrong, that their concerns aren't
valid or forcing short-sighted design decisions on them.

[RonB]

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by chrisv

(trolling snipped)

Yet millions choose to use GNU/Linux. Millsions more would if it
weren't for the FUBAR market and the FUD.

You can disagree all you want, but he's not saying things some of us
haven't experienced when using Linux. Things tend to improve when the
people working on a product actually listen to their users rather than
telling them that they're using it wrong, that their concerns aren't
valid or forcing short-sighted design decisions on them.

He's making piss-poor assumptions about why people use Linux. He's clueless.
As I've already mentioned in previous posts.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Linux lacks the software.

Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
properly on ARM, but it still can’t manage it. Microsoft has also been
spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it can’t
manage that either.

You don’t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Linux lacks the software.

Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
properly on ARM, but it still can’t manage it. Microsoft has also been
spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it can’t
manage that either.
You don’t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

This is indeed a fair point. Microsoft has indeed made a few things in
Windows more like Linux. winget comes to mind.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?

Did I miss any?

[Hank Rogers]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

[vallor]

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.

Here's is Linux Mint's:

https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7

Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.

[%]

Post by vallor

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.

why would i take an image and ,
turn it into something else ,
why not just make the image i want

[Paul]

Post by vallor

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.

Linux has several generations of presentation of software.

* Software-Store-like presentation (the latest method)

* GUI presentation of package manager text (the practical way)

* Textual command line search (what came before the GUI, still useful)
(The Snap Search was truncated, to not embarrass the people who made it).

[Picture]

Loading Image...

No special care was used in selecting the test subject for that picture.
It was whatever was available in the VM list.

For the Software Store, I provide two frames. The timestamp of starting
to install a software. And the timestamp when the effort is "finished".

A total of 12 minutes, when the .deb version would install in a minute, tops.

[Picture]

Loading Image...

What I did in preparation for that shot, is

snap refresh

This downloads recent copies of the Gnome Desktop snap, which is huge.
If you don't do that, the App Store does an implicit "refresh" while
you are sitting there with egg on your face. You could easily sit
there for half an hour, until the "refresh" is finished. The App Store
does not say "sorry, doing a refresh". There is no status in the GUI
indicating the level of contempt involved.

I separated that part out, so the App Store would not look so bad.
I did the "refresh", before doing the timing run.

Result:

1) App Store takes 12 minutes to download a package that is 10x
the size of the .deb version.

2) Once the SNAP is loaded (a self-contained execution environment),
the environment has failed to form a symbolic link from some weirdly
named shared library, into the appropriate spot. Attempts to launch
the erstwhile GIMP program, fail.

This is why anyone who really uses the OS, uses Synaptic and .deb files,
something that Linux Mint has too and LM has a better look about it
as it does not feature SNAPS. You can still install the snap subsystem
if you want, but you don't have to. Firefox is a .deb in Linux Mint.
For now at least.

Paul

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Paul

Post by vallor
Most common distributions have some sort of software manager.
https://imgur.com/EgkWlC7
Another graphical package manager is Synaptic.

Linux has several generations of presentation of software.
* Software-Store-like presentation (the latest method)
* GUI presentation of package manager text (the practical way)
* Textual command line search (what came before the GUI, still useful)
(The Snap Search was truncated, to not embarrass the people who made it).
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/q7J4NWMW/Ubuntu-Selecting-Software.gif
No special care was used in selecting the test subject for that picture.
It was whatever was available in the VM list.
For the Software Store, I provide two frames. The timestamp of starting
to install a software. And the timestamp when the effort is "finished".
A total of 12 minutes, when the .deb version would install in a minute, tops.
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/pTsVcCNT/Ubuntu-2404-App-Store-GIMP-Test.gif
What I did in preparation for that shot, is
snap refresh
This downloads recent copies of the Gnome Desktop snap, which is huge.
If you don't do that, the App Store does an implicit "refresh" while
you are sitting there with egg on your face. You could easily sit
there for half an hour, until the "refresh" is finished. The App Store
does not say "sorry, doing a refresh". There is no status in the GUI
indicating the level of contempt involved.
I separated that part out, so the App Store would not look so bad.
I did the "refresh", before doing the timing run.
1) App Store takes 12 minutes to download a package that is 10x
the size of the .deb version.
2) Once the SNAP is loaded (a self-contained execution environment),
the environment has failed to form a symbolic link from some weirdly
named shared library, into the appropriate spot. Attempts to launch
the erstwhile GIMP program, fail.
This is why anyone who really uses the OS, uses Synaptic and .deb files,
something that Linux Mint has too and LM has a better look about it
as it does not feature SNAPS. You can still install the snap subsystem
if you want, but you don't have to. Firefox is a .deb in Linux Mint.
For now at least.

Arch Linux (the other distro I use) has a couple of command-line apps.
Maybe there's a cutesy GUI, but I just goo-goo for the package name if
the obvious name doesn't work with pacman.

(Pacman and Arch-like packages are also used on Windows in the MSYS2 system).

On Debian (Sid) I have used the ncurses (I think) app called "aptitude", for
years and years.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

Then you blind. They're called "repositories", not stores, and there's no cost
to install. Most Linux distroes (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Arch, CentOS)
have then. See vallor's response.

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now. In fact, you
can even go to snapcraft.io or flathub.org and install applications from
the web page by clicking on them.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now.

Or just use a GUI front end to the package management system.

[Paul]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Hank Rogers

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

The "stores" most Linux distributions offer have that now.

Or just use a GUI front end to the package management system.

The software store, is a graphical front for *two* repositories.

The software store will tell you which repository or both of them
have a copy of what you want, and you can select which type
you want. One is bloated, so most people would use the other.

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository
filled with .deb files.

The Store concept could handle multiple packaging schemes at
the same time. Whatever the distro happens to support.

Paul

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
with .deb files.

Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

[Paul]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
with .deb files.

Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

It probably can. But all it was originally designed
for was .deb as that's all there was at the time.

The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
to support more options out of the box. But generally
speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
not very nice. At least with a command line launch
after installation, there are error messages.

While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
(like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
the first level of checking is by Debian staff.

Paul

[%]

Post by Paul

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
with .deb files.

Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

It probably can. But all it was originally designed
for was .deb as that's all there was at the time.
The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
to support more options out of the box. But generally
speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
not very nice. At least with a command line launch
after installation, there are error messages.
While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
(like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
the first level of checking is by Debian staff.
Paul

what's wrong with your address

[% 🔕 🎼 🎵 🎶 🎙️ 🎚️ 🎛️ 🎤]

Post by %

Post by Paul

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository filled
with .deb files.

Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

It probably can. But all it was originally designed
for was .deb  as that's all there was at the time.
The Software Stores are of more recent manufacture,
and are an invention of a richer era, so they have
to support more options out of the box. But generally
speaking, in terms of operating speed, and communication
style, they can be slower, and they don't exactly
give you much in the way of hints, on a failure.
Clicking the "Open" and nothing happens, that's
not very nice. At least with a command line launch
after installation, there are error messages.
While I occasionally test the Software Store, I have
zero interest in using it on a daily basis. That would
be an awful way to live. Synaptic by comparison, is a
trustworthy item. I can get thing done with that.
And the lineup is hardly ever wrong. Very good curation
by the staff. You will notice in my random selection
of the GIMP image editor (SNAP version) from the
Software Store thing, not only was it slow, but the
program was broken. I can promise you the .deb version
(like on Linux Mint), won't be broken. That's because
the first level of checking is by Debian staff.
    Paul

what's wrong with your address

it's weird

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by Paul
The Synaptic GUI for example, is the GUI for a single repository
filled with .deb files.

Isn’t it a front end for whatever is in /etc/apt/sources.list and /etc/
apt/sources.list.d/*? Which can be any number of repositories?

It probably can. But all it was originally designed for was .deb as
that's all there was at the time.

Repositories full of .deb files are what I am talking about.

[OLIVER]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Repositories full of .deb files are what I am talking about.

WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS? WHY ARE LINUX JUNKIES SO
STUPID?

STOP THE FUCK FROM POSTING THIS ON WINDOWS NEWSGROUP.

NOW GO AND FUCK YOUR SISTER OR EVEN YOUR MOTHER.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by OLIVER
WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS?

Take a deep breath, and read the thread from the beginning.

[Paul]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by OLIVER
WHAT THE FUCK HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH WINDOWS?

Take a deep breath, and read the thread from the beginning.

A little thread drift perhaps. The original post
was about a click-bait/confused Forbes article.

Using Rufus, you can continue to run "something"
on your PC from the Windows domain, that still works.
As much as the stuff has worked to date (Windows Update
rough edges).

But what the average user will do, who can guess at that.
The average user is not prepared for any complicated
procedures, and if you query the state of the average
user machine, you will find the Windows Update broke
three years ago, and the individual did not notice.

If I go to my local computer store, the cashier
when asked questions, is a very practical person, and
does not engage people in a "buy,buy,buy" conversation.
The staff don't really like their employer, so it's not
surprising what conversations result. If anyone asks
that cashier what to do, they'll just be told to
"keep using what you've got and don't worry about it".
Which is a pretty reasonable answer, for customers
who cannot handle much else in the way of alternatives.

Paul

[T]

Post by Hank Rogers
Damn, is there a linux store where you just click on a program to
install it? I must have missed that.

There is a find app program. You type in what you are after
and it makes suggestions. No big deal.

I use the command line though

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

[-hh]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

Wasn't that derived from SMIT, which was originated in IBM's AIX circa 1989?


-hh

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by -hh

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in
about 1994.

Wasn't that derived from SMIT, which was originated in IBM's AIX circa 1989?

Probably not.

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

That's not a store.

[Paul]

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

That's not a store.

The "Store Concept" is the dumbed down version of package management.

The user is not supposed to understand or learn anything about
packages and dependencies, when pecking at the button in the Store.

Doing a dumb version, is fine, if you can pull it off.
If, every time you click the button, a biscuit comes out,
then the user would "trust" the dumb method. If, like in
my demo test, the biscuit is not delivered and there
is no error message or even a hint of failure, the
dumb concept is a fail, because the customer is not
getting a "reward" for clicking the button. The
operant conditioning is going to be a fail.

All this arguing about who invented the Store, it is
the Psychology department at my university that invented it.
At the entrance to the department, was a receptionist.
Next to the receptionist was a stack of chicken cages
with one chicken per cage. There are buttons to click,
and some sort of stimulus. The chicken figures out,
that if you click the "GIMP" button, a grain of food
will come down the chute. If the chicken is not
rewarded when the "GIMP" button is pressed, the
chicken has no incentive to click it the next time.

I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens,
because they were in excellent condition, none of them
seemed to be diseased or anything. But everything the
psych department did was like that. They would do the
most complicated things, to suit their religion
(B.F. Skinner-ism). They had probably conditioned
a grad student, to take care of the chickens
(you know, give the grad student electric shocks,
if the work was not done).

Paul

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Paul

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

That's not a store.

The "Store Concept" is the dumbed down version of package management.

Clearly. However, you don't buy applications in Synaptic.

Post by Paul
The user is not supposed to understand or learn anything about
packages and dependencies, when pecking at the button in the Store.
Doing a dumb version, is fine, if you can pull it off.
If, every time you click the button, a biscuit comes out,
then the user would "trust" the dumb method. If, like in
my demo test, the biscuit is not delivered and there
is no error message or even a hint of failure, the
dumb concept is a fail, because the customer is not
getting a "reward" for clicking the button. The
operant conditioning is going to be a fail.
All this arguing about who invented the Store, it is
the Psychology department at my university that invented it.
At the entrance to the department, was a receptionist.
Next to the receptionist was a stack of chicken cages
with one chicken per cage. There are buttons to click,
and some sort of stimulus. The chicken figures out,
that if you click the "GIMP" button, a grain of food
will come down the chute. If the chicken is not
rewarded when the "GIMP" button is pressed, the
chicken has no incentive to click it the next time.
I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens,
because they were in excellent condition, none of them
seemed to be diseased or anything. But everything the
psych department did was like that. They would do the
most complicated things, to suit their religion
(B.F. Skinner-ism). They had probably conditioned
a grad student, to take care of the chickens
(you know, give the grad student electric shocks,
if the work was not done).

In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live
in the Stone Age?

[Paul]

In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in the Stone Age?

Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".

This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
every library needed to make GIMP run.

Nothing at all comes from the system /usr/lib when the GIMP SNAP runs.
It cannot in fact. Even if the GIMP inside the container
needed a hug, it can't get a hug from the life forms outside
the container. It's environment is completely inside the container.

The SnapCrafters (the party placing the GIMP in the SNAP Store),
they are the ones for ensuring the alignment of elements inside
the file system of the container.

By attempting to run the busted GIMP from the command line,
we can see on the first invocation, a number of errors. There
is some process that happens after the container is loopback
mounted, where some of those errors are resolved.

But it seems one of the dependencies, it exists inside the
file system. But the symbolic link, to link it into a path
where the GIMP executable can get it, is missing.

This is the value of looking at the symptoms. We can see
the situation is non-recoverable. If I reach inside the
squashfs and "fix it", that will change the checksum of the
file, the file will be discarded, and a fresh copy of the
diseased SNAP will be fetched.

*******

I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.

sudo snap remove gimp
sudo apt install gimp
gimp example.heic

[Picture]

Loading Image...

Paul

[CrudeSausage]

Post by Paul

In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in the Stone Age?

Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
every library needed to make GIMP run.
Nothing at all comes from the system /usr/lib when the GIMP SNAP runs.
It cannot in fact. Even if the GIMP inside the container
needed a hug, it can't get a hug from the life forms outside
the container. It's environment is completely inside the container.
The SnapCrafters (the party placing the GIMP in the SNAP Store),
they are the ones for ensuring the alignment of elements inside
the file system of the container.
By attempting to run the busted GIMP from the command line,
we can see on the first invocation, a number of errors. There
is some process that happens after the container is loopback
mounted, where some of those errors are resolved.
But it seems one of the dependencies, it exists inside the
file system. But the symbolic link, to link it into a path
where the GIMP executable can get it, is missing.
This is the value of looking at the symptoms. We can see
the situation is non-recoverable. If I reach inside the
squashfs and "fix it", that will change the checksum of the
file, the file will be discarded, and a fresh copy of the
diseased SNAP will be fetched.
*******
I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
sudo snap remove gimp
sudo apt install gimp
gimp example.heic
[Picture]
https://i.postimg.cc/RFGmQnP9/gimp-deb-ubuntu2404-HEIC.gif

What a fucking mess.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Paul

Post by CrudeSausage
In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in
the Stone Age?

Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
every library needed to make GIMP run.
<brevsnip>
I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
sudo snap remove gimp
sudo apt install gimp
gimp example.heic

I never use Snap. Actually shut my Ubuntu laptop semi-permanently.

I use GIMP on Win 11 as well. It's notably slower in Win 11 than it is in Linux
(Debian) with the same (dual boot) hardware. As is Qt Creator.

[Paul]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

Post by Paul

Post by CrudeSausage
In 2024, why would it be necessary for a user to know that GIMP didn't
install because 13 obscure libraries couldn't be pulled from their
respective repositories? Why do Linux losers insist that everyone live in
the Stone Age?

Ah, but they weren't "pulled from Repositories".
This was the SNAP version of GIMP. A squashfs container filled with
every library needed to make GIMP run.
<brevsnip>
I later discovered that Ubuntu does have a dual representation
for the GIMP. This is how I got myself a working setup. I removed
the SNAP and installed a .deb . Fixed.
sudo snap remove gimp
sudo apt install gimp
gimp example.heic

I never use Snap. Actually shut my Ubuntu laptop semi-permanently.
I use GIMP on Win 11 as well. It's notably slower in Win 11 than it is in Linux
(Debian) with the same (dual boot) hardware. As is Qt Creator.

I run GIMP in Windows 11, from Bash Shell.

The demo of UBuntu was done in a VM.

I have up to three versions of GIMP on the W11 box.
Not all are equally convenient.

1) gimp.exe 2.6.8 (a version with Save As, instead of Export)
2) Win11 bash shell, WSLg, GIMP 2.10 .deb (for HEIC work)
3) Win11 Virbualbox "Ubuntu 2404 Guest", GIMP 2.10 .deb (the demo)

Item (1) is the workhorse one. I use the bash shell, every day.

Paul

[Chris Ahlstrom]

<snip>
I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens, because they were in
excellent condition, none of them seemed to be diseased or anything. But
everything the psych department did was like that. They would do the most
complicated things, to suit their religion (B.F. Skinner-ism). They had
probably conditioned a grad student, to take care of the chickens (you know,
give the grad student electric shocks, if the work was not done).

https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Seymour_Skinner

He is the principal of Springfield Elementary School, and a stereotypical
educational bureaucrat. He struggles to control the crumbling school and is
constantly engaged in a battle against its inadequate resources, apathetic
and bitter teachers, and often rowdy and unenthusiastic students, Bart
Simpson being a standout example. A strict disciplinarian, Skinner has an
uptight, militaristic attitude that stems from his years in the United
States Army as a Green Beret, which included service in the Vietnam War,
where he achieved the rank of a sergeant, according to his rank insignia.
As a result of his service in the Vietnam War, he is often plagued by
horrible memories of his involvement via post-traumatic stress disorder,
sometimes even happening at the most inopportune of times. It is also
implied that he received a severe injury during the Vietnam War on his
posterior to require a metal plate to be installed in it.

And actually, I can state from experience that they had worse stimuli
than electric shocks to apply to grad students.

[Paul]

Post by Chris Ahlstrom

<snip>
I often wondered who did "maintenance" on the chickens, because they were in
excellent condition, none of them seemed to be diseased or anything. But
everything the psych department did was like that. They would do the most
complicated things, to suit their religion (B.F. Skinner-ism). They had
probably conditioned a grad student, to take care of the chickens (you know,
give the grad student electric shocks, if the work was not done).

https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Seymour_Skinner
He is the principal of Springfield Elementary School, and a stereotypical
educational bureaucrat. He struggles to control the crumbling school and is
constantly engaged in a battle against its inadequate resources, apathetic
and bitter teachers, and often rowdy and unenthusiastic students, Bart
Simpson being a standout example. A strict disciplinarian, Skinner has an
uptight, militaristic attitude that stems from his years in the United
States Army as a Green Beret, which included service in the Vietnam War,
where he achieved the rank of a sergeant, according to his rank insignia.
As a result of his service in the Vietnam War, he is often plagued by
horrible memories of his involvement via post-traumatic stress disorder,
sometimes even happening at the most inopportune of times. It is also
implied that he received a severe injury during the Vietnam War on his
posterior to require a metal plate to be installed in it.
And actually, I can state from experience that they had worse stimuli
than electric shocks to apply to grad students.

They made me participate in the Milgram Experiment re-enactment.

The setups for these experiments, are accurate in every detail.
Including the "electric box" shown in the picture.

Which today, that experiment is considered unethical in the profession.
It wasn't unethical back then.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html

My reference to giving a grad student a shock, that's
an inside joke about Milgram.

Paul

[T]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Post by CrudeSausage
winget comes to mind.

Winget, Nuget, Chocolatey, Scoop, Ninite ... Windows Store?
Did I miss any?

Saying that the Windows Store is trying to copy Linux is actually
ridiculous since Apple was the first to produce one.

Linux pioneered integrated systemwide package management starting in about
1994.

With Fedora, if you use their repos, the spec file's
contain all the dependencies, so those get installed
at the same time. It is very polished and professional.

Not with Windows.

I have a running argument with Raku for Windows
about making Git a dependency as Raku's zef (installs
Raku libraries) requires it. Oh ya, and you
have to figure it out yourself, the hard way.
No such bull s*** in Fedora.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro

Linux lacks the software.

Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM
and x86 (both 32-bit and 64-bit). No other platform can match that.
Microsoft has been spending millions trying to get Windows to work
properly on ARM, but it still can’t manage it. Microsoft has also been
spending millions trying to make Windows more like Linux -- and it can’t
manage that either.
You don’t hear of Linus Torvalds lying awake at nights, trying to figure
out how to add drive letters to Linux, do you?

I laughed my ass off at all of the bullshit in Newyana2's post. It's so stupid
it's got to be simple trolling.

[DFS]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM

The software no one wants running on the hardware no one wants... what a
combo.

[Lawrence D'Oliveiro]

Post by Lawrence D'Oliveiro
Linux is the only platform that offers a full native suite for both ARM

... the hardware no one wants...

Microsoft certainly seems to want it, and is trying very hard to support
it.

Its lack of success is another matter.

[RonB]

    On balance I think the way Mint does it (still shipping
    with the older kernel) is better.
If your machine is relatively new, then Linux Mint 22 is a better fit.
There may still be some support items not working yet. My hardware
monitor
sensors, still cannot be read out on three boards. If a kernel claims
to be a HWE (hardware enablement kernel), that can provide better
support for bleeding edge hardware (your new NPU and machine learning
setup).
Those choices should come closer to a friendly environment.

    I tried Mint once. I didn't get past the kiddie folder icons.
I actually like Suse. It's very polished compared to most versions.
It also has a good software selection. Though the firewall I finally
got working, opensnitch, was only available through less direct
channels. The Suse packages are really just the basics.
   I think the "distro" wars misses the point. There's no magical
version that solves the Linux problem. They're all moving
targets, under construction, not well designed for Desktop.
People always say, "Oh, well, you must not have tried AceAndAcme
Linux. It's the cat's pajamas." No. None of them are the cat's pajamas.
   In more recent times, the half-baked geek versions have been
joined by solid versions "your gandmother could use". But that's
also not a solution. It's just two extremes. It's based on the typical
Linux devotee thinking that people are divided into hardcore geeks
and grandmothers. (Possibly those are the only people that these
geeks know.) The niche that Windows fills is the giant area in between --
a system with tremendous software options, great backward
compatibility, and supported levels of expertise, so that a non-geek
office worker or a "power user" can both get Windows to do what
they want. And what they want can be a great variety of things.
  Linux lacks the software. It lacks the power user level or even
the business level. It lacks
backward compatibility. I'm still writing software in VB6, which
came out 25 years ago, and my software runs on every Windows
computer. Macs typically support 2 years back. Linux... forget it.
It's far too complicated to even update a program except through
a package manager. The old version needed abc.dll v. 1.5.6.3243.17
and the new version refuses to run without v. 1.5.6.3243.18. Typically
there are 20 cases like that. Zero backward compatibility. There's
no need. Because no one is actually using this software for anything
except to upgrade the last version. It's all just a geek conversation.
  Anyone actually using Linux, who's not a computer scientist, is
probably just using Firefox and Libre Office. And Grandma doesn't
even need Libre Office. The whole paradigm is a mess.
  My favorite current example of this travesty is when I installed
Xubuntu on my new computer, as part of a wide ranging experiment
last winter. It set up OK, though it was barebones and ugly. But there
was one detail: I couldn't set the clock and the displayed time was
wrong. I looked all over. There were options for display style and
such, but no option to just set the time. I searched online and finally
found a discussion with the man who had written the clock code. He
didn't include an option to set the time in the settings UI because he
prefers command line! These people say these things proudly, with
no awareness of how bratty and dysfunctional they sound. "You
wanted a floor in your new addition? Personally I prefer unfinished
plywood subfloor, so that's what I did. Just don't walk around barefoot.
Splinters. Oh, and the subfloor on the east side of the room is not
nailed down. That's handy to be able to reach the plumbing underneath
since I didn't insulate and pipes could freeze. Enjoy. :)"

It's total bullshit but that's what Windows fanbois seem to like.