Discussion:
The Truth About FOSS, Gnu/Linux & "The Flatfish Phenomenon" (caution: very long article alert going off!)
(too old to reply)
Aragorn
2005-09-22 08:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,


First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...

The first reason is that I'm an Aspie, i.e. I have Asperger's Syndrome,
otherwise known as High Functioning Autism. I have already stated this
on this newsgroup, as well as on other newsgroups I participate in.

I have no problem speaking of my condition as I don't see why I should
be ashamed of the fact that I was born with somewhat less developed but
in number far more prevalent and more complexly wired neurons in my
brain than as is the case in the brains of "normal" human beings.

AS/HFA is a handicap, but it's more of a social deficiency than an
intellectual one. In fact, people with AS/HFA usually have very high
IQ levels. I think it's therefore useful to inform people of my
handicap, as it helps them in assessing certain (re)actions of mine,
such as the writing of loooooooooong, elaborate posts on Usenet... ;-þ

Aspies are very thorough in their explanations and can virtually ramble
on forever when they need to point out the facts or the truth behind a
given situation, or when they feel enthusiastic about something. Both
apply to me right now. ;-)

The second reason behind my decision to contrive this lengthy post - and
the most important of the two - is the fact that this and other Usenet
newsgroups are constantly being plagued by so-called *trolls.*

For the newbie: A troll is a person who joins a newsgroup with the
intention of stirring up trouble between the participants of this
group, in the form of an attack on the main topic of the newsgroup.

This very group is called /comp.os.linux.advocacy/ and is dedicated to
promoting Gnu/Linux, both technically - as an operating system - and
ideologically - i.e. Gnu/Linux being Free & Open Source Software. It
is therefore a wet-dream target for Win-trolls and Apple-trolls.

For those of you who do not know me from other newsgroups - I use the
same nick in all groups - I haven't actually been subscribed to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ for all that long yet. Not that I wasn't
already an advocate of Free & Open Source Software - from here on
called "FOSS" - before I joined this group, but rather because I was
warned about the reputation of this newsgroup by a few regulars on
other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups, who actually referred to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ as - and I quote - "a sewer"...

If the above shocks or offends you, then know that I am merely quoting
what others had told me; I am in no way saying that this group really
_is_ a sewer. In fact, I see many of the names here that I used to see
on /alt.os.linux.mandrake,/ and they are the names of respectable
people whose posts I appreciate.

It is however quite evident that - more than any other Gnu/Linux-related
newsgroup I'm subscribed to - this very newsgroup here is (becoming?) a
second home to many trolls - be it Win-trolls or Apple-trolls - because
of its very existence as an advocacy group. One could therefore more
accurately describe this newsgroup as "a demilitarized zone", with
terrorists sneaking in. ;-)

Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to be
some kind of *threat* to them. They will post lies or half-truths -
i.e. twisted facts - to this and other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups
with the intent of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - from here on
called "FUD" - among the Gnu/Linux newbies, or with the intent of
simply raising a few people's blood pressure levels as their idea of a
good time.

It must however be pointed out to the newbie (and serve as a reminder to
the more seasoned Gnu/Linux users) that no matter how well any of us
refute the untruths and half-truths spoken by such trolls, the trolls
themselves already seem to have fallen victim to their *own* FUD, as
they seem to direct their attacks onto aspects of the IT landscape that
fall beyond the scope of what Gnu/Linux and FOSS stand for.

So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...

From my experiences, I discern three very distinct trolling techniques,
although others /may/ exist. I will present them here below...

+++++

*[1]* _*The*_ _*"Windows-is-so-much-better"*_ _*Argument*_

This kind of posts usually attempts to discredit the technical quality
of Gnu/Linux, and to a smaller extent of other FOSS products such as
Mozilla FireFox, Mozilla Thunderbird, et al. This section therefore
makes up for the biggest chunk of text in this /little/ post of mine,
but I think it's quite an important read for every newbie... ;-)

While it is true that every operating system and every software product
contains bugs and flaws - after all, the people who write up that code
are only human - it is a given fact that FOSS products are of a
substantially higher quality than proprietary software products.

Proprietary software products - like Microsoft Windows, Microsoft
Office, et al - are being written by people who do so to make a living
for themselves (and/or their family members) - speaking of the actual
software developers, that is; I won't be addressing business strategies
or large-scale corporate objectives here.

In other words, the developers of proprietary software usually only
develop their code on a nine-to-five basis. There is less commitment
to creativity and perfection than with the FOSS developers, who write
up their software on a voluntarily basis and with their fullest
motivation and enthusiasm.

Additionally, proprietary software has commercial intentions. It is not
intended to work flawlessly or to serve your needs as a system
administrator or a home user - as much as Microsoft _wants_ you to
believe that it is, via their ubiquitous and royally funded advertising
campaigns.

The _prime_ _objective_ behind the development of proprietary software
is to earn money through the *sale* *of* *the* *product* and through
the *after-sales* *support.* Proprietary software such as Microsoft
Windows is a tradeable commodity, and it is specifically being created
for that purpose, so don't let the advertising slogans and the
buzzwords fool you.

Microsoft programmers have already confirmed "off the record" that
Windows typically ships with some 60'000 bugs, of which some 20'000 are
_*fatal*_ to the system's stability and/or integrity. And _this_ is
what _you_ as a user pay big dough for, even if it's "included with
your new computer". You see, what the salesguys usually don't tell you
is that the OEM license for Windows is already included in the price of
the machine.

And yes, let's talk about the license... When you buy a Microsoft
product, you are *licensed* to use that software on one computer -
other licenses exist for larger corporate needs, such as a license on
the number of network connections to a machine.

The above means that the only thing you actually *own* is the CD(-set)
or DVD that the software came on, along with the booklet and the box it
came in, if any. You *do* _*not*_ *own* *the* *software,* and you are
*not* *allowed* to modify it, not even for an improvement in the way
the software works on your own hardware! _Note:_ Applying personal
preferences such as wallpapers or color schemes is not a modification.

Free & Open Source Software on the other hand - there is a small
difference in the licensing between "Free Software" and "Open Source
Software", but they largely represent the same thing - are created by
enthusiasts - who are by no means amateurs; they are actually mostly
engineers - and is being scrutinized and even patched for better
security, stability and/or functionality before a Gnu/Linux distributor
decides to include the software as part of its distribution.

Considering the enthusiasm and creative spirit of the FOSS developers,
these people are highly committed to writing better software than
what's commercially available. They simply want their software to
work, and they go to great lengths to get there.

FOSS developers are happiest when people are using their software or
their code, and they want to exchange code with other developers so as
to improve on the codebase and make it as perfect as possible. These
people are artists, not merchants, and they want to be allowed to share
that code with other developers, or to tweak the code written by
others. _This_ is what the word "free" in Free Software stands for:
freedom!

Next to all of the above, there is yet another important difference
between Gnu/Linux and Microsoft Windows. This difference lies in the
design of both platforms.

Microsoft Windows was originally developed as a GUI-oriented add-on for
MS-DOS. Next to offering a more user-friendly graphical interface to
MS-DOS, it allowed the user to more or less run multiple applications
concurrently - a principle known as /multi-tasking/ - and allowed for
all of the memory in the computer to be used, whereas DOS itself could
only access 640 KB of physical memory and had no knowledge whatsoever
about paging the memory contents to a hard disk. DOS actually only
started supporting hard disks themselves from version 3.00 on. ;-)

Originally, Windows used a multi-tasking scheduling known as
"cooperative multi-tasking", which was very similar to the
multi-tasking on the MacIntosh operating systems of the same era, i.e.
the applications decided how many CPU-cycles they would use up before
they would pass on the CPU to other tasks.

Later on the multi-tasking aspect of Windows was changed to a
"preemptive" model - i.e. not the application but the operating system
kernel decides how much CPU time is given to each process - and Windows
became an independent operating system, in the sense that it didn't
require MS-DOS to be installed separately anymore.

Again a bit later, Windows shifted from relying on a built-in MS-DOS to
being based upon a new type of kernel, known as the New Technology
kernel - from here on referred to as "NT" ;-). Along with the shifting
to this newer 32-bit kernel, Windows also begot some add-ons that
allowed it to function as a server.

The essence of Windows however still is an end-user appliance that does
not fully utilize the power of the underlying hardware and that
restricts the end-user in the ways for performing a certain task.

The server functionality of Windows is just an add-on, regardless of how
extensive it may be, or how extensive Microsoft wants businesses to
believe, and the functionality is seriously crippled by the existence
of Windows as a GUI-only system - with a very limited and emulated
commandline interface - and by its licensing, which prohibits anyone
from modifying the system's binary code or design.

Windows has poor memory management - particularly where it concerns the
paging of memory to the hard disk - and has no security built-in unless
the NTFS filesystem is used. This filesystem - as well as the /vfat/
filesystem, otherwise known to Windows users as "FAT32" - severely
fragments over a very short period of time, inducing severe stability
and performance penalties.

Windows also needlessly uses Remote Procedure Calls - also known as
"RPC" - for internal inter-process communication, which greatly renders
the system vulnerable to cracking attacks from the outside. Thus
arises the absolute *_need_* for Windows users to install a firewalling
application or invest in a hardware firewall.

For long, Windows users had to rely on third party software to hunt down
viruses, spyware, keyloggers, browser hijackers and other malware, to
defragment the filesystem, to clean up the Registry from unwanted keys
- some of which were solely put in place to ensure the proper
enforcement of software licenses, e.g. remnants of trial versions which
would prevent you from re-installing the software after its trial
period had expired - and to block hazardous network traffic - i.e. the
firewall.

Microsoft has in the meantime absorbed or duplicated some of those tools
and is now offering them to the user directly - either shipped with
Windows or shipped as a bonus within a Service Pack - or indirectly
among the downloadable software at the Microsoft website. Thusfar
Microsoft Windows, no matter what trolls may say.

Gnu/Linux on the other hand is a UNIX clone. It looks, feels and
behaves itself towards the users and towards its installed programs as
a UNIX system. It uses the proven UNIX architecture, although it was
written from scratch, and it aims for compliance with the POSIX
standards and the Single UNIX Specification.

To cut a long story short, GNU was written from scratch in 1984 by
Richard M. Stallman - the founder and president of the Free Software
Foundation - and his friends, as a Free Software UNIX clone. Its
native kernel - a microkernel - is called the "Mach kernel" - and a set
of userspace services known as "the Hurd".

_Note:_ The kernel is the central part of an operating system. It
manages the process scheduling, the memory and the I/O. Monolithic
kernels also manage the hardware. Microkernels leave this aspect to
userspace drivers, i.e. drivers that run in the CPU's lowest privilege
mode. All modern microprocessors have four privilege level /rings,/
numbered from 0 (highest) to 3 (lowest). All modern operating systems
only use /rings/ 0 (kernelspace) and 3 (userspace).

The GNU operating system was a complete and "production-ready" platform,
except for one thing...: the Hurd was far from ready and far from
stable for a long time. It has in the meantime reached
production-level quality and a Gnu/Hurd operating system can be freely
downloaded from the Debian website, for those of you who might be
interested. Be sure to read the documentation first! ;-)

Considering that "RMS" - as Richard Stallman calls himself - and his
friends had no commercial interests, they also never committed
themselves to promoting their GNU operating system via advertising.
Instead, they only chose to promote the ideology itself, which helped
the community grow and helped further development of the system.

In 1991, Linus Benedict Torvalds was studying at the University of
Helsinki. He was actually originally using /Minix/ - a UNIX-like
operating system developed by Professor Alan Tannenbaum for educational
purposes only - on his own i386 computer.

In order to better study the instructionset of the Intel 80386 CPU he
had one in his own machine, Linus Torvalds started off writing a
monolithic UNIX-style kernel for it from scratch, hereby using the GNU
tools such as /glibc/ and /gcc./ He had also attended a symposium by
Richard Stallman, and he decided to release his kernel under the terms
and conditions of the GNU General Public License - usually referred to
as "the GPL". :-)

Linus Torvalds originally intended to call his kernel "Freax" - "FREa
uniX" - but his friends - whom he had shared his code with and who had
helped him in its further development - found it more appropriate to
name it after Linus himself. Hence the name "Linux".

So, it was Linus Torvalds who wrote Linux, the kernel. The rest of the
operating system however all came from the GNU project, which itself
didn't have a production-ready kernel. Hence "Gnu/Linux". Soon, other
Free Software was added on to provide for a complete distribution - I
may be wrong, but I think /Slackware/ was the first real distro - and
the rest is history... ;-)

Being a UNIX clone, Gnu/Linux was built from the ground up with security
features such as permission masks, file ownerships and extended file
attributes, all along the UNIX tradition. UNIX as an architecture was
first developed in the late 1960's by Thomson and Ritchie at AT&T - but
originally just so they could play games on an unused PDP-11 in their
spare time - and was already a production-ready operating system by the
early 1970's, i.e. long before MS-DOS, and even before CP/M, of which
MS-DOS was an improved version.

UNIX systems are multi-tasking, /multi-threading/ - i.e. they can split
up running processes into smaller sections called "threads" and use
those for their time-slicing - _and_ they are /multi-user/ systems.
This means that they are intended to have more than one user being
logged into the system at the same time, performing different tasks.

_Note:_ The NT-based versions of Windows are also multi-threading, but
Windows is actually an end-user-oriented platform and so its server,
security and multi-user functionalities are not part of its design.
They are added on as additional layers on top of the base design,
contrary to what is the case in UNIX operating systems.

UNIX originally ran on mainframes and minicomputers, and was later on
ported to the microcomputer, when that architecture begot a
sufficiently powerful CPU. The UNIX design is a complete client/server
architecture - i.e. a whole network within one physical computer system
- and even in the workstation market, it has been the preferred
platform for software development, scientific and medical research and
analysis for many, many years.

Just to give you an example: the animated movies "Shrek", "Shrek 2" and
"Final Fantasy" as well as the dinosaurs in "Jurassic Park" were
created on supercomputers - i.e. clusters of inter-connected computers
that distribute their computing over all connected systems - that were
all running and governed by Gnu/Linux... I may again be wrong, but I
seem to remember that George Lucas also opted for Gnu/Linux clusters
for the rendering of the sci-fi scenes in his last three "Star Wars"
movies. ;-)

Just as with the commercially vended UNIX platforms, Gnu/Linux has been
time-proven to be suitable for mission-critical environments. Its
stability, power, flexibility, versatility, maintainability,
reliability, portability and scalability are already world-renowned -
no matter what any troll tells you. So it's far from being an underdog
or an insignificant hobby project.

Gnu/Linux has already been ported to just about every existing hardware
architecture out there; from wristwatches, PDA's, GPS systems and other
embedded devices over personal computers, professional high-end
workstations and servers, up to minicomputers, clustered
supercomputers, and even IBM mainframes like the S/390.

The above may already seem like an endlessly long list of facts to you -
well... it is, actually **lol** - but still it is only a *small*
excerpt from the enormous difference in design between Microsoft
Windows and Gnu/Linux.

The only thing you can say at most in relation to a technical comparison
between these two platforms, is that they can both be found runing on
the same hardware, i.e. the IA32, IA64 and x86-64 architectures.

The commercial nature of Microsoft Windows, the many non-disclosure
collaborations between Microsoft and other software (and hardware)
vendors and the resulting fact that the Linux kernel developers
actually have to go out and buy the latest hardware in order to
reverse-engineer it and whence develop a driver are the very reasons as
to why some hardware is simply not supported in Gnu/Linux just yet.
But just because it isn't supported _yet_ doesn't mean that it won't be
supported at some time soon. ;-)

Windows is by far not a better operating system than Gnu/Linux. Not
quality-wise, not ideology-wise and certainly not design-wise. In
fact, the contrary is all the more true.

However, Gnu/Linux is not, was not, and never will be a competitor for
Microsoft Windows. The very origin of the two systems and their
intrinsic designs are _completely_ different. This is also why
Gnu/Linux newbies should not demand that Gnu/Linux _becomes_ like
Windows in this or that aspect.

Some people like cats, others like dogs, but nobody goes off buying a
cat with the expectation that it'll behave like a dog, or vice versa.
By the same token, the rebuttal about the alleged user-unfriendliness
of Gnu/Linux is moot. If you want the power at your fingertips, you
have to be willing to learn how to use that power. Nobody can expect
to fly the Space Shuttle just because he's got a driver's license for a
sedan with an automatic transmission.

This all said, what you yourself think or feel would be the appropriate
operating system for your computer is _*your*_ choice, not ours and not
anybody else's...

_*That*_ is what Free Software is all about... ;-)

+++++

*[2]* _*The*_ _*Market-Share-and-Support*_ _*Argument*_

This one is a little shorter than the above chunk of text, but
nevertheless a favored trolling issue.

In the previous chapter, I have already mentioned that Microsoft has
certain non-disclosure deals with other proprietary software
developers, and even with hardware developers.

As a result of the latter, lots of hardware lacks support in Gnu/Linux.
The first reason for this is that the hardware vendors still consider
Gnu/Linux as something unimportant, just because it doesn't have a
(concrete) corporate (and thus legally liable) name behind it. After
all, Microsoft will always be around and will always be domineering the
end-user market. Or so the hardware vendors think.

Yet, many large corporations have already sided up with the Gnu/Linux
developers - for whatever reasons they may have, of course; it surely
isn't out of the kindness of their hearts. ;-) Such corporations are
IBM, HP, Novell and SGI, Sun Microsystems, Transmeta, Intel, AMD and
others.

In addition to the above, it is also noteworthy that Microsoft is
currently losing a great deal of its government support in other
countries than the USA. Many government administrations previously
relying on Microsoft and its products are now making the switch to
Gnu/Linux and other FOSS products.

The second reason for Microsoft's dominance on the desktop is that
Microsoft actually makes anti-FOSS deals with certain hardware vendors
- e.g. in the brandname PC market - ensuring that their hardware can
only fully be used with Windows.

Everyone with a critical eye on advertising and marketing can tell how
aggressively Microsoft attempts to gain the full 100% on each market.
Their position as a multinational and their very clever marketing
techniques - e.g. the embedding of IE/OE into the NT kernel - leaves
the end-user with very little incentive - other than security or
stability flaws - to try and use anything other than what Microsoft
presents them with.

The monopoly position of Microsoft is also detectable in other areas
than the operating system debate. For instance, I happen to be running
an IRC network with a couple of friends, and while IRC was still a very
popular medium a few years ago, the inclusion of MSN in Windows has
severely damaged that popularity...

Yet another factor in regards to popularity is the media, and by this
I'm not referring to the IT-related media, but rather to normal,
everyday journalism. This usually focuses on the political and
economic events in the world, not on IT, and so when something
IT-related deserves being reported in the news broadcasts on TV
stations or in a column in a newspaper - e.g. as with a dangerous virus
or worm - the journalists are far from educated on the subject and will
typically not even know that there is such a thing as Gnu/Linux unless
one of their sources explicitly refers to it as being "an alternative
operating system platform". _Note:_ Don't you hate that word
"alternative"? That's like saying that there's such a thing as a
"standard operating system"... **shake head** ;-)

Contrary to Windows, Gnu/Linux - although commercially vended by certain
distributions - does not force any particular application or tool onto
the user, and even supplies multiple but slightly different tools to
perform the same task.

See, the best way of thinking about Gnu/Linux - and UNIX in general - is
as a huge toolbox; you pick what you need or like for whatever it is
you want to do, and if you want something complex done fast, you
combine the tools into a script. Plenty of languages to choose from:
Bourne shell, Korn shell, C shell, Perl, Python, Ruby, etc. But I
digress, so let me return to the subject... ;-)

Commercial distributions are businesses and therefore do advertise.
They hope to win back some of the market share currently taken (and
aggressively/arrogantly defended) by Microsoft. They can however not
spend the same large amount on advertising and lobbying as a
multinational like Microsoft can, and considering the very ideology
behind Gnu/Linux, the distributors don't intend to play it dirty, even
if Microsoft does, e.g. by designing websites so that they can only be
viewed with IE. After all, if they were to do that, they wouldn't be
any better than that which they are trying to expose.

So what about the numbers? Does Microsoft have the largest share in the
desktop market? Yes, it does. Unmistakably! Do they earn that?
Considering the poor design and quality of their products, considering
their unfair alliances and monopolist techniques, the answer is "No,
they do not."

Will they keep their grip on this market? We don't know, and we don't
really care. All we care about is that we can hold on to our freedom
to choose another operating system than that which Microsoft and its
grunts dictate.

But how about the server market? Is it really true that Microsoft
dominates that one too? No, not by a long shot! Most server systems
connected to the Internet are running proprietary UNIX, Gnu/Linux or
one of the Open Source BSD's, i.e. FreeBSD - which is also used as the
basis for Apple's OS X - NetBSD or OpenBSD.

Microsoft does own a large percentage of the server market, but not even
half of it. Another, smaller section of the server market still relies
on Novell's Netware, possibly uses some older VMS system or may be
using the server version of Apple's OS X. These numbers are
negligible, though.

However, as I pointed out in the first chapter already: as Gnu/Linux is
all about freedom and has nothing to do with any commercial interests -
short of the commercial distribution vendors - the argument about
market shares is actually moot.

The point is not to gain market shares, the point is to bring the
message across that there still is something else out there but what
Microsoft and other proprietary vendors want you to believe, and that
you too can make use of (and contribute to) this technology, and the
Freedom it represents... ;-)


+++++

*[3]* _*The*_ _*Four-Letter-Word*_ _*Trolls*_

This requires the least bit of attention in my already very long
article, but they are here nevertheless... ;-)

We've all seen them already, and frankly, we don't know _why_ they still
bother. Their posts are so stupid and empty that they cannot have come
from anyone who's had a reasonable amount of parental education on
common decency and possesses average or above intelligence.

In other words, they are the kind that will post things like "Linux
sux", "f*ck you, Lintards" and other fine examples of prose. Arguing
with these cretins is a waste of your time, and they are best treated
with a prompt admission to your /killfile./ _Newbie_ _note:_ The
/killfile/ is a filter in your newsreader that filters out such posts,
based upon identities, thread subjects, targeted newsgroups, etc. If
you see someone saying "plonk" to someone else, it means they have
/killfiled/ them.

+++++

Now that the above is all said, the last subject I'm about to talk to in
this article is the phenomenon known as /Flatfish.../

I myself have actually never seen this troll in action under the
pseudonym Flatfish, but I did see references to the /Flatfish/ persona
in the replies to posts from this(/these?) individual(s?) when
he/she/them was/were using other pseudonyms while cross-posting to a
multitude of Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups - one of them being a group I
have already been on long before I to joined /comp.os.linux.advocacy/ -
*ànd* to the infamous /alt.os.windows-xp./

In fact, I have then replied to this troll, setting him/her straight on
the facts, just as I have done a few times now before I finally decided
I'd had enough of the nonsense. The regulars on this group may have
seen those replies being posted here as well.

The above is one of the main reasons why I finally decided to join
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ in the first place. I feel that it is
important that we stand up to these trolls, because they are totally
distorting the very essence of this and other Gnu/Linux-related
newsgroups, and of the Free Software Foundation and the Open Source
Initiative themselves.

This all said, here are the entries I have in my /killfile/ regarding
this character... :

- ***@yahoo.com
- ***@yahoo.com
- ***@yahoo.com
- ***@yahoo.com

The first three entries were instated when this character decided to
cross-post to /alt.os.linux.mandrake,/ i.e. before I was subscribed to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy./

In the meantime, we have also already seen this troll as a number of
female characters such as Laura, Susan and Lisa - my latest /killfile/
addition - and possibly others, but I've got a mild migraine right now
so I can't really remember. ;-)

The different identities all represent the same (group of) person(s), as
there are some unmistakable analogies...

(1) Each time, the pseudonym matches the first half of the
e-mail address and contains underscores to separate the words
or firstname and lastname. Flatfish will surely change that
now... ;-)

(2) The e-mail address is a Yahoo webmail account, freshly
created a few hours or a day before the initial post from the
new identity.

(3) The poster starts two to four new threads in a timespan
of only a few hours and will follow up on some of the replies,
even posting a reply to him-/herself with a seemingly honest
complaint about our alleged rudeness, et al.

(4) A number of the "whines" returns in each post, e.g. the
argument of Windows software being used in schools or the
complaint that this or that hardware gadget - which was most
likely designed for Windows - will not work in Gnu/Linux.

(5) Sooner or later, the poster will start accusing us of being
zealots, nerds, geeks, and of not having a life, et al.

(6) The assault comes out of nothing, does its thing with great
fire and activity, and then dies again, all in a maximum
timespan of two days but often shorter.

(7) The individual behind these posts does know something about
IT, but by far not enough to substantiate any claims made. It
is most likely that he/she gets his/her inspiration from doing
a few Google searches for reports on the current state of
affairs in the "Microsoft versus FOSS" debate, and/or from
lurking on Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups, taking notes of the
problems encountered.

(8) Much of what this poster says will sooner or later conflict
with things he/she said earlier on while posting under the same
identity.

+++++

Thusfar this very long post of mine... As I said in my introduction,
this article was directed at both the newbies and the seasoned
Gnu/Linux users, although I chose to take out a bigger effort in aiming
more at the former category of readers. :-)

I sincerely hope that I haven't bored you people with this huge chunk of
text, and that I've managed to adequately explain what Gnu/Linux is
(and is not) about. I do however expect the Windows zealots to eagerly
jump to the occasion, since I've managed to tackle a few of their
arguments... ;-)

I wish to thank everyone who managed to read through this long post from
beginning to end without falling asleep, developing a headache or
turning into a werewolf (or any combination hereof). :-þ

_*Endnote:*_ Anything written in this post may be reproduced verbatim or
by reference elsewhere according to the terms and conditions of the
Creative Commons License. ;-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Kier
2005-09-22 10:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...
The first reason is that I'm an Aspie, i.e. I have Asperger's Syndrome,
otherwise known as High Functioning Autism. I have already stated this
on this newsgroup, as well as on other newsgroups I participate in.
I have no problem speaking of my condition as I don't see why I should
be ashamed of the fact that I was born with somewhat less developed but
in number far more prevalent and more complexly wired neurons in my
brain than as is the case in the brains of "normal" human beings.
AS/HFA is a handicap, but it's more of a social deficiency than an
intellectual one. In fact, people with AS/HFA usually have very high
IQ levels. I think it's therefore useful to inform people of my
handicap, as it helps them in assessing certain (re)actions of mine,
such as the writing of loooooooooong, elaborate posts on Usenet... ;-þ
It's an advocacy group - if we can't enthuse here, where can we? :-)
Post by Aragorn
Aspies are very thorough in their explanations and can virtually ramble
on forever when they need to point out the facts or the truth behind a
given situation, or when they feel enthusiastic about something. Both
apply to me right now. ;-)
The second reason behind my decision to contrive this lengthy post - and
the most important of the two - is the fact that this and other Usenet
newsgroups are constantly being plagued by so-called *trolls.*
For the newbie: A troll is a person who joins a newsgroup with the
intention of stirring up trouble between the participants of this
group, in the form of an attack on the main topic of the newsgroup.
This very group is called /comp.os.linux.advocacy/ and is dedicated to
promoting Gnu/Linux, both technically - as an operating system - and
ideologically - i.e. Gnu/Linux being Free & Open Source Software. It
is therefore a wet-dream target for Win-trolls and Apple-trolls.
No surprise there.
Post by Aragorn
For those of you who do not know me from other newsgroups - I use the
same nick in all groups - I haven't actually been subscribed to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ for all that long yet. Not that I wasn't
already an advocate of Free & Open Source Software - from here on
called "FOSS" - before I joined this group, but rather because I was
warned about the reputation of this newsgroup by a few regulars on
other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups, who actually referred to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ as - and I quote - "a sewer"...
If the above shocks or offends you, then know that I am merely quoting
what others had told me; I am in no way saying that this group really
_is_ a sewer. In fact, I see many of the names here that I used to see
on /alt.os.linux.mandrake,/ and they are the names of respectable
people whose posts I appreciate.
The group has its highs and lows, IMO. If you want 'sewer', try
alt.os.windows-xp. On the other hand - don't, you'll be put off your
lunch. It makes this place look like paradise.
Post by Aragorn
It is however quite evident that - more than any other Gnu/Linux-related
newsgroup I'm subscribed to - this very newsgroup here is (becoming?) a
second home to many trolls - be it Win-trolls or Apple-trolls - because
of its very existence as an advocacy group. One could therefore more
accurately describe this newsgroup as "a demilitarized zone", with
terrorists sneaking in. ;-)
That is because troll-catching is this groups other, generally unstated
purpose. Better they do their trolling here, however unpleasant they are,
than take it to the regular help groups.
Post by Aragorn
Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to be
some kind of *threat* to them. They will post lies or half-truths -
i.e. twisted facts - to this and other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups
with the intent of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - from here on
called "FUD" - among the Gnu/Linux newbies, or with the intent of
simply raising a few people's blood pressure levels as their idea of a
good time.
It must however be pointed out to the newbie (and serve as a reminder to
the more seasoned Gnu/Linux users) that no matter how well any of us
refute the untruths and half-truths spoken by such trolls, the trolls
themselves already seem to have fallen victim to their *own* FUD, as
they seem to direct their attacks onto aspects of the IT landscape that
fall beyond the scope of what Gnu/Linux and FOSS stand for.
So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...
It's interesting, isn't it?

Some people here say these trolls get paid by MS. Personally, I don't
beleive that for a minute. If you look at Usenet as a whole, it's full of
these idiots, trolling against all kinds of groups, and they all seem to
have similar motives in the end - they get a kick out of being unpleasant
and disruptive. Some of them it would aopear are deeply unpleasant human
beings, who no doubt behave in a similar manner in the real world.

The odd thing about trolls here is that they very often bring forth
advocacy, rather than stifle it IMO, trolls shouldn't always be ignored.
On the contrary, their lies should be challenged and exposed, ruthlessly
(I'm not speaking here of foul-mouthed idiots like 'tab', and others,
obviously). If we ignore them and they go away, that's fine for COLA, but
what of the groups they will undoubtedly infest instead? Better they stay
here, horrible and pestilential creatures though they are.

What I do think we as advocates should do is steer away from simply
bashing MS and Windows just for the sake of saying how bad it is. I'm
fairly sure most of us here are agreed on MS/Windows' general
deficiencies :-). What we need to do is focus much more on promoting
Linux, rather than just denigrating Windows, though of course it would be
difficult to make comparisons without occasionally mentioning why
Windows is not a good OS. But why not focus more on the reasons Linux is
good, rather than why Windows is bad?

<snip rest of excellent post>
--
Kier
Aragorn
2005-09-22 10:52:50 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 12:29, Kier stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
<snip>

I'm glad to see my post got through anyway, although I myself don't see
it appear in the list of headers on any of my ISP's newsservers.

I was already afraid that I had put so many hours into writing up
something that nobody would ever get to see... ;-)
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
AS/HFA is a handicap, but it's more of a social deficiency than an
intellectual one. In fact, people with AS/HFA usually have very high
IQ levels. I think it's therefore useful to inform people of my
handicap, as it helps them in assessing certain (re)actions of mine,
such as the writing of loooooooooong, elaborate posts on Usenet... ;-þ
It's an advocacy group - if we can't enthuse here, where can we? :-)
True, I suppose. However, I'm aware that 633 lines - according to
/KNode's/ "Sent" folder - is loooooooong... :-þ

<snip>
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
For those of you who do not know me from other newsgroups - I use the
same nick in all groups - I haven't actually been subscribed to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ for all that long yet. Not that I wasn't
already an advocate of Free & Open Source Software - from here on
called "FOSS" - before I joined this group, but rather because I was
warned about the reputation of this newsgroup by a few regulars on
other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups, who actually referred to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ as - and I quote - "a sewer"...
If the above shocks or offends you, then know that I am merely
quoting what others had told me; I am in no way saying that this
group really _is_ a sewer. In fact, I see many of the names here
that I used to see on /alt.os.linux.mandrake,/ and they are the names
of respectable people whose posts I appreciate.
The group has its highs and lows, IMO. If you want 'sewer', try
alt.os.windows-xp. On the other hand - don't, you'll be put off your
lunch. It makes this place look like paradise.
I can imagine. However, contrary to the Win-trolls coming here, I
disapprove of Gnu/Linux users going over to Windows or MacIntosh groups
in order to troll there.

Trolling is wrong everywhere, and it's not that _we_ have to start doing
it because they are. Besides, Windows is boring. ;-)
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
It is however quite evident that - more than any other
Gnu/Linux-related newsgroup I'm subscribed to - this very newsgroup
here is (becoming?) a second home to many trolls - be it Win-trolls
or Apple-trolls - because of its very existence as an advocacy group.
One could therefore more accurately describe this newsgroup as "a
demilitarized zone", with terrorists sneaking in. ;-)
That is because troll-catching is this groups other, generally
unstated purpose. Better they do their trolling here, however
unpleasant they are, than take it to the regular help groups.
I agree on that, although they do seem to take it to other groups as
well, as I've come to experience. And then there are the crossposts...
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to
be some kind of *threat* to them. They will post lies or half-truths
- i.e. twisted facts - to this and other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups
with the intent of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - from here
on called "FUD" - among the Gnu/Linux newbies, or with the intent of
simply raising a few people's blood pressure levels as their idea of
a good time.
It must however be pointed out to the newbie (and serve as a reminder
to the more seasoned Gnu/Linux users) that no matter how well any of
us refute the untruths and half-truths spoken by such trolls, the
trolls themselves already seem to have fallen victim to their *own*
FUD, as they seem to direct their attacks onto aspects of the IT
landscape that fall beyond the scope of what Gnu/Linux and FOSS stand
for.
So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...
It's interesting, isn't it?
Maybe having Gnu/Linux becoming more popular would result in people
having to admit that they're too dumb to understanding how computer
technology really works, or that they're too lazy to Read The /Fine/
Manuals... ;-)
Post by Kier
Some people here say these trolls get paid by MS. Personally, I don't
beleive that for a minute.
Well, it has already been proven in the past. Microsoft was exposed in
sending Win-trolls into the OS/2 groups. They were just regular
Microsoft employees, and trolling the OS/2 groups was part of their job
description.
Post by Kier
If you look at Usenet as a whole, it's full of these idiots, trolling
against all kinds of groups, and they all seem to have similar motives
in the end - they get a kick out of being unpleasant and disruptive.
Sure, I know that...
Post by Kier
Some of them it would aopear are deeply unpleasant human beings, who
no doubt behave in a similar manner in the real world.
Yup! Bullies! I know all about those... Seen them up close... :-/
Post by Kier
The odd thing about trolls here is that they very often bring forth
advocacy, rather than stifle it IMO, trolls shouldn't always be ignored.
Well, I usually refute their claims so as to properly inform the
newbies. I don't generally like to /killfile/ unless I really do get
fed up with a particular individual, but by that time I've already
sufficiently stated my case. ;-)

The other kind, the one that uses the four-letter words and talks with
the intellectual or educational level of a kid who's just entered
puberty and feels like it's his duty to come on with an attitude, they
get parked in my loony bin a lot sooner. ;-)
Post by Kier
On the contrary, their lies should be challenged and exposed,
ruthlessly (I'm not speaking here of foul-mouthed idiots like 'tab',
and others, obviously).
Yup, I've seen him around, right before he vanished into my
/killfile.../ **grin**
Post by Kier
If we ignore them and they go away, that's fine for COLA, but what of
the groups they will undoubtedly infest instead? Better they stay
here, horrible and pestilential creatures though they are.
True. In a way, they are on-topic, as strange as it may seem, as it
_is_ an advocacy group.
Post by Kier
What I do think we as advocates should do is steer away from simply
bashing MS and Windows just for the sake of saying how bad it is. I'm
fairly sure most of us here are agreed on MS/Windows' general
deficiencies :-). What we need to do is focus much more on promoting
Linux, rather than just denigrating Windows, though of course it would
be difficult to make comparisons without occasionally mentioning why
Windows is not a good OS. But why not focus more on the reasons Linux
is good, rather than why Windows is bad?
That's what I attempt to do. ;-)
Post by Kier
<snip rest of excellent post>
Thanks for reading it! :-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Kier
2005-09-22 11:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
On Thursday 22 September 2005 12:29, Kier stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
<snip>
I'm glad to see my post got through anyway, although I myself don't see
it appear in the list of headers on any of my ISP's newsservers.
Sometimes these things happen.
Post by Aragorn
I was already afraid that I had put so many hours into writing up
something that nobody would ever get to see... ;-)
That would indeed have been a pity.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
AS/HFA is a handicap, but it's more of a social deficiency than an
intellectual one. In fact, people with AS/HFA usually have very high
IQ levels. I think it's therefore useful to inform people of my
handicap, as it helps them in assessing certain (re)actions of mine,
such as the writing of loooooooooong, elaborate posts on Usenet... ;-þ
It's an advocacy group - if we can't enthuse here, where can we? :-)
True, I suppose. However, I'm aware that 633 lines - according to
/KNode's/ "Sent" folder - is loooooooong... :-þ
True. If you're overcome by the urge a second time, you could always split
it into a couple of parts.
Post by Aragorn
<snip>
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
For those of you who do not know me from other newsgroups - I use the
same nick in all groups - I haven't actually been subscribed to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ for all that long yet. Not that I wasn't
already an advocate of Free & Open Source Software - from here on
called "FOSS" - before I joined this group, but rather because I was
warned about the reputation of this newsgroup by a few regulars on
other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups, who actually referred to
/comp.os.linux.advocacy/ as - and I quote - "a sewer"...
If the above shocks or offends you, then know that I am merely
quoting what others had told me; I am in no way saying that this
group really _is_ a sewer. In fact, I see many of the names here
that I used to see on /alt.os.linux.mandrake,/ and they are the names
of respectable people whose posts I appreciate.
The group has its highs and lows, IMO. If you want 'sewer', try
alt.os.windows-xp. On the other hand - don't, you'll be put off your
lunch. It makes this place look like paradise.
I can imagine. However, contrary to the Win-trolls coming here, I
disapprove of Gnu/Linux users going over to Windows or MacIntosh groups
in order to troll there.
me too. I may answer a lot of trolls, and am occasionally guilty of
cross-posting but I never enter other groups in order to diss their OS.
It's a pointless and childish activity.
Post by Aragorn
Trolling is wrong everywhere, and it's not that _we_ have to start doing
it because they are. Besides, Windows is boring. ;-)
I've noticed that. I'm not one of those who really *loathes* Windows, as I
know some here do. But I don find it rather dull and restrictive since I
took up using Linux.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
It is however quite evident that - more than any other
Gnu/Linux-related newsgroup I'm subscribed to - this very newsgroup
here is (becoming?) a second home to many trolls - be it Win-trolls or
Apple-trolls - because of its very existence as an advocacy group. One
could therefore more accurately describe this newsgroup as "a
demilitarized zone", with terrorists sneaking in. ;-)
That is because troll-catching is this groups other, generally unstated
purpose. Better they do their trolling here, however unpleasant they
are, than take it to the regular help groups.
I agree on that, although they do seem to take it to other groups as
well, as I've come to experience. And then there are the crossposts...
Yes, that's one thing that's difficult to stop. I try to cut out
cross-posted groups, usually, or set a follow-up. though sometimes i
forget :-)
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
Post by Aragorn
Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to
be some kind of *threat* to them. They will post lies or half-truths
- i.e. twisted facts - to this and other Gnu/Linux-related newsgroups
with the intent of spreading Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt - from here
on called "FUD" - among the Gnu/Linux newbies, or with the intent of
simply raising a few people's blood pressure levels as their idea of a
good time.
It must however be pointed out to the newbie (and serve as a reminder
to the more seasoned Gnu/Linux users) that no matter how well any of
us refute the untruths and half-truths spoken by such trolls, the
trolls themselves already seem to have fallen victim to their *own*
FUD, as they seem to direct their attacks onto aspects of the IT
landscape that fall beyond the scope of what Gnu/Linux and FOSS stand
for.
So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...
It's interesting, isn't it?
Maybe having Gnu/Linux becoming more popular would result in people
having to admit that they're too dumb to understanding how computer
technology really works, or that they're too lazy to Read The /Fine/
Manuals... ;-)
Post by Kier
Some people here say these trolls get paid by MS. Personally, I don't
beleive that for a minute.
Well, it has already been proven in the past. Microsoft was exposed in
sending Win-trolls into the OS/2 groups. They were just regular
Microsoft employees, and trolling the OS/2 groups was part of their job
description.
I've heard of one or two cases when this sort of thing did take place. But
I'm still of the opinion it's not as widespread as people think. If there
*are* any here, well, they're certainly not worth their wages.

The fact that some posters think Windows is good/cool/excellent/whatever
doesn't automatically mean they are 'MS shills' - in our eyes it may make
them daft, but we can't all be enlightened, can we? They're perfectly
entitled to believe what they wish, even if we don't like it.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
If you look at Usenet as a whole, it's full of these idiots, trolling
against all kinds of groups, and they all seem to have similar motives
in the end - they get a kick out of being unpleasant and disruptive.
Sure, I know that...
Post by Kier
Some of them it would aopear are deeply unpleasant human beings, who no
doubt behave in a similar manner in the real world.
Yup! Bullies! I know all about those... Seen them up close... :-/
Nasty pieces of work. The world is sadly full of them these days.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
The odd thing about trolls here is that they very often bring forth
advocacy, rather than stifle it IMO, trolls shouldn't always be ignored.
Well, I usually refute their claims so as to properly inform the
newbies. I don't generally like to /killfile/ unless I really do get
fed up with a particular individual, but by that time I've already
sufficiently stated my case. ;-)
I killfile relatively rarely. There's little point in killfiling flatfish
nyms anyway, since he just shifts to another nym. I let bailo out for a
while, but he just started behing a dick again, so back he went.
Post by Aragorn
The other kind, the one that uses the four-letter words and talks with
the intellectual or educational level of a kid who's just entered
puberty and feels like it's his duty to come on with an attitude, they
get parked in my loony bin a lot sooner. ;-)
Agreed. That sort are an utter waste of creation.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
On the contrary, their lies should be challenged and exposed,
ruthlessly (I'm not speaking here of foul-mouthed idiots like 'tab',
and others, obviously).
Yup, I've seen him around, right before he vanished into my
/killfile.../ **grin**
He's one of those I killfiled almost at once. All you get from that sort
is incoherent rubbish. I do use bad language myself at time, but I try to
limit it to when I'm provoked beyond reason by an idiot, and I prefer to
write in proper sentences and with punctuation.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
If we ignore them and they go away, that's fine for COLA, but what of
the groups they will undoubtedly infest instead? Better they stay
here, horrible and pestilential creatures though they are.
True. In a way, they are on-topic, as strange as it may seem, as it
_is_ an advocacy group.
The biggest problem with these trolls, it seems to me is that they
sometimes raise what may actually be relevant issues, but they do so in
such a twisted and dishonest way that it is difficult to have a proper and
serious discussion of the issues in question. Linux has a number of
moderately weak areas, but the minute we advocactes allow that into a
discussion, the trolls leap upon it and start crowing, thus derailing the
topic.

For example, the recent 'Lisa-the-fish' post concerning wireless access in
Linux. It's a bit hit and miss as yet, and sometimes you have to google a
while to find what you're looking for. I know, because my new laptop needs
a wireless card, and I had an old one which is unsupported, even in
ndiswrapper. It's a pain, but I don't immediately blame Linux, as the
troll does. The 'fault', if there is one, lies with manufacturers who
aren't yet willing to support Linux themselves. And as there are many,
many different wifi cards, how can we expect developers to cover every
single one? They're only human.

Trolls misrepresent the situation, and mislead newbies into thinking
wireless is far more of a problem than it actually is.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
What I do think we as advocates should do is steer away from simply
bashing MS and Windows just for the sake of saying how bad it is. I'm
fairly sure most of us here are agreed on MS/Windows' general
deficiencies :-). What we need to do is focus much more on promoting
Linux, rather than just denigrating Windows, though of course it would
be difficult to make comparisons without occasionally mentioning why
Windows is not a good OS. But why not focus more on the reasons Linux
is good, rather than why Windows is bad?
That's what I attempt to do. ;-)
Me too. Of course, we can't advocate in a vacuum,, so *some* opposition
factor may still be necessary.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
<snip rest of excellent post>
Thanks for reading it! :-)
You're welcome. It was very well thought out.
--
Kier
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-22 21:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Post by Kier
Some people here say these trolls get paid by MS. Personally, I don't
beleive that for a minute.
Well, it has already been proven in the past. Microsoft was exposed in
sending Win-trolls into the OS/2 groups. They were just regular
Microsoft employees, and trolling the OS/2 groups was part of their job
description.
All you're doing is parroting hearsay. The fact is, nobody has ever been
"proven" to be paid to troll in any newsgroup. The closest you can get to
this is the infamous "barkto incident" in which a microsoft employee
trolled the OS/2 forum on Compuserve (long before newsgroups became a
popular place to hang out). Whether or not they were paid to do so is
unknown, and certainly never proven, nor was there any "job description"
proven.

Fact is, it makez *ZERO* sense for a company like Microsoft to pay someone
to troll an advocacy group, since such groups are not where the fertile
ground is for such trolling. Everyone here is already jaded, and doesn't
believe anything anyone says, so why troll there? Why not troll in message
boards in less technical areas, where there will be fewer people to refute
your claims?

Usenet itself is also such a vastly under-represented forum to troll in,
because the average purchaser is not sitting in here reading articles. It
simply makes no sense.

You take yourself WAY too seriously if you think this to be the case.
Aragorn
2005-09-22 23:22:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 23:38, Erik Funkenbusch stood up and spoke
the following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Well, it has already been proven in the past. Microsoft was exposed
in sending Win-trolls into the OS/2 groups. They were just regular
Microsoft employees, and trolling the OS/2 groups was part of their
job description.
All you're doing is parroting hearsay. The fact is, nobody has ever
been "proven" to be paid to troll in any newsgroup. The closest you
can get to this is the infamous "barkto incident" in which a microsoft
employee trolled the OS/2 forum on Compuserve (long before newsgroups
became a popular place to hang out). Whether or not they were paid to
do so is unknown, and certainly never proven, nor was there any "job
description" proven.
The "job description" part was my personal choice of words, meaning that
they were told to do so. I'm pretty much aware that Microsoft would
*never* officially record any assignment to go trolling as part of any
job description. They'd be totally insane if they were to even spell
it out on paper or verifiable electronic communications media.

However, the incident you refer to did happen, and it was not one MS
employee but several of them. I know this from a guy who was there,
and he's by no means a troll or a liar.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Fact is, it makez *ZERO* sense for a company like Microsoft to pay
someone to troll an advocacy group, since such groups are not where
the fertile ground is for such trolling.
Where exactly did I refer to an *OS/2* *advocacy* group? I said "OS/2
groups". I'm sure there were plenty of technical support groups for
that platform as well.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Everyone here is already jaded, and doesn't believe anything anyone
says, so why troll there? Why not troll in message boards in less
technical areas, where there will be fewer people to refute your
claims?
That is what I was told to have happened in said case.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Usenet itself is also such a vastly under-represented forum to troll
in, because the average purchaser is not sitting in here reading
articles. It simply makes no sense.
You take yourself WAY too seriously if you think this to be the case.
Was that still "hypothetical second person speak" or are you actually
directing that statement towards my personality? In the latter case, I
proclaim the right to take myself as seriously as I wish.

Being afflicted with HFA, taking myself seriously all the time happens
to be one of my main trades. Like it or not, but at least it ensures
that I will retain my selfrespect and integrity, both of which are far
more important to me than to "regular", "healthy" people.

And no, that was not an attempt to lash out at you; it's merely a fact.
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-23 00:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
All you're doing is parroting hearsay. The fact is, nobody has ever
been "proven" to be paid to troll in any newsgroup. The closest you
can get to this is the infamous "barkto incident" in which a microsoft
employee trolled the OS/2 forum on Compuserve (long before newsgroups
became a popular place to hang out). Whether or not they were paid to
do so is unknown, and certainly never proven, nor was there any "job
description" proven.
The "job description" part was my personal choice of words, meaning that
they were told to do so. I'm pretty much aware that Microsoft would
*never* officially record any assignment to go trolling as part of any
job description. They'd be totally insane if they were to even spell
it out on paper or verifiable electronic communications media.
However, the incident you refer to did happen, and it was not one MS
employee but several of them. I know this from a guy who was there,
and he's by no means a troll or a liar.
Is that "Proven" as well? You seem to be the king of saying things are
proven or "a fact" when they're either completely made up or at best a
rumor.

Nowhere, in any of the articles about "the barkto incident" does it even
imply that it was more than one person. There were only a few messages
exchanged in the entire affair anyways. That makes little sense. It was
pretty much presented that said person was Rick Segal, a Microsoft
executive. You can read Joe Barr's account of the event here:

http://lists.essential.org/1998/am-info/msg01529.html

There's no data to determine whether or not this action was something taken
on by the employee themselves, or if it was "ordered". Yes, it did happen,
but a lot differently than you imply and state.

Pardon me if i'm skeptical of your "I know a guy" argument. It just seems
to be more of your reiteration of hearsay.

As someone else pointed out, you seem to share a lot of mannerisms with
Rex. Maybe he's also an Aspie... that would explain a lot. But you both
seem to have the same tendancie to invent statistics, waive rumor and
hearsay around as fact, and (at least in Rex's case) completely imagine
events. The jury's still out on whether you suffer from that last one yet.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Fact is, it makez *ZERO* sense for a company like Microsoft to pay
someone to troll an advocacy group, since such groups are not where
the fertile ground is for such trolling.
Where exactly did I refer to an *OS/2* *advocacy* group? I said "OS/2
groups". I'm sure there were plenty of technical support groups for
that platform as well.
I was referring to advocacy groups in general, not OS/2 ones. The barkto
incident was on a technical forum, not an advocacy group.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Everyone here is already jaded, and doesn't believe anything anyone
says, so why troll there? Why not troll in message boards in less
technical areas, where there will be fewer people to refute your
claims?
That is what I was told to have happened in said case.
What you were told, eh? Pardon my skepticism.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Usenet itself is also such a vastly under-represented forum to troll
in, because the average purchaser is not sitting in here reading
articles. It simply makes no sense.
You take yourself WAY too seriously if you think this to be the case.
Was that still "hypothetical second person speak" or are you actually
directing that statement towards my personality? In the latter case, I
proclaim the right to take myself as seriously as I wish.
That wasn't directed at you in particular, but rather anyone that takes
themselves that seriously. You can certainly take yourself as seriously as
you like, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to call you delusional
for doing so.
Post by Aragorn
Being afflicted with HFA, taking myself seriously all the time happens
to be one of my main trades. Like it or not, but at least it ensures
that I will retain my selfrespect and integrity, both of which are far
more important to me than to "regular", "healthy" people.
What you mean is that you will retain your artificially created reality, if
Rex is any example of what you refer to.

I shouldn't judge you by Rex, but it's hard not to given the similarities.
Aragorn
2005-09-23 03:55:40 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 23 September 2005 02:10, Erik Funkenbusch stood up and spoke
the following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
However, the incident you refer to did happen, and it was not one MS
employee but several of them. I know this from a guy who was there,
and he's by no means a troll or a liar.
Is that "Proven" as well?
You've just said it yourself that the incident occurred, and you're even
providing a link to it! And yes, I have far more of an incentive to
trust the man who witnessed this event than to trust your judgment,
given your bias.

You're not giving _me_ that credit either.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You seem to be the king of saying things are proven or "a fact" when
they're either completely made up or at best a rumor.
Thanks, dude! That ought to win you my sympathy right away... *not!*
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Nowhere, in any of the articles about "the barkto incident" does it
even imply that it was more than one person. There were only a few
messages exchanged in the entire affair anyways. That makes little
sense. It was pretty much presented that said person was Rick Segal,
a Microsoft executive. You can read Joe Barr's account of the event
http://lists.essential.org/1998/am-info/msg01529.html
There's no data to determine whether or not this action was something
taken on by the employee themselves, or if it was "ordered". Yes, it
did happen, but a lot differently than you imply and state.
Man, you're just like that other guy on another newsgroup. Anything
that I say about Microsoft is by definition considered a lie or an
exaggeration, which is the same thing as saying "You are guilty,
Microsoft is absolutely innocent".
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Pardon me if i'm skeptical of your "I know a guy" argument. It just
seems to be more of your reiteration of hearsay.
If I remembered his name, I would give it to you. He does use Gnu/Linux
himself but he's also got a MacIntosh system for himself - a laptop I
believe - and he professionally deals with all architectures.

I haven't seen him around in over two years. He was living in the USA
but his name was Scandinavian - I think his first or middle name was
"Jan". He spells out his full name. That's all I can tell you.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
As someone else pointed out, you seem to share a lot of mannerisms
with Rex.
Yes, your Flatfish troll friend pointed that out. I don't even know who
this Rex character is, let alone that I would make an attempt to mirror
his behavior.

However, I've been called lots of other things before, and I've been
compared to lots of other Usenet posters (in other groups) before.

Still, I am using the same pseudonym on each group I'm in, I'm posting
through my ISP's SMTP server and my true e-mail address can easily be
construed from the mangled one I use here for the obvious reasons.

I've only had one other Usenet pseudonym before - this was around the
time of the abovementioned Usenet acquaintance of mine hanging around -
but I have been away from Usenet for two years and somebody else has in
the meantime already taken that nick.

I also didn't want to use it anymore myself because I was being stalked
by people who knew me in person and also knew that I was posting on
Usenet and in what groups. And I actually like the pseudonym I have
now. My life and personality have a lot in common with the fictional
character whose name I'm using.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Maybe he's also an Aspie... that would explain a lot.
We do have a similar method of communicating, which sometimes comes
across as cold, arrogant or pedantic. The first two are however only
impressions by the observer and are far from the reality. The being
pedantic is true, and it's typical for Aspies.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
But you both seem to have the same tendancie to invent statistics,
waive rumor and hearsay around as fact, and (at least in Rex's case)
completely imagine events.
If I were to do all of the above, I would be a troll. You yourself have
already been accused of such things by multiple posters on this very
newsgroup, actually.

I am not a troll, nor do I wish to be one. If that were my ambition, I
would be doing what you are doing now, i.e. participate in
Windows-related newsgroups while openly advocating Gnu/Linux. (Only
that in your case, the two platforms are switched, of course)

At the same time I can easily put my hand on my heart and state that I
have a flawless reputation in every group I'm in and even in everyday
real life.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The jury's still out on whether you suffer from that last one
yet.
Well, you've already judged me on the other things, so you may as well
go ahead and finish it off. That'll save me the time from replying to
your posts and will save you the annoyance of having to read mine.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Fact is, it makez *ZERO* sense for a company like Microsoft to pay
someone to troll an advocacy group, since such groups are not where
the fertile ground is for such trolling.
Where exactly did I refer to an *OS/2* *advocacy* group? I said
"OS/2 groups". I'm sure there were plenty of technical support
groups for that platform as well.
I was referring to advocacy groups in general, not OS/2 ones. The
barkto incident was on a technical forum, not an advocacy group.
Which is what I thought. I hadn't even considered that there would have
even been such a thing as an OS/2 advocacy group until you mentioned
it. But of course, considering that OS/2 was an underdog - I've used
the system for about 5 years myself, but not at a time when I had an
Internet (or generic modem) connection - it would be quite strange if
there had _not_ been an OS/2 advocacy group.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Everyone here is already jaded, and doesn't believe anything anyone
says, so why troll there? Why not troll in message boards in less
technical areas, where there will be fewer people to refute your
claims?
That is what I was told to have happened in said case.
What you were told, eh? Pardon my skepticism.
Obviously we have a communications problem here. I was referring to the
trolling of the OS/2 newsgroup having taken place in a regular support
group, not in an advocacy group.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You take yourself WAY too seriously if you think this to be the case.
Was that still "hypothetical second person speak" or are you actually
directing that statement towards my personality? In the latter case,
I proclaim the right to take myself as seriously as I wish.
That wasn't directed at you in particular, but rather anyone that
takes themselves that seriously. You can certainly take yourself as
seriously as you like, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to
call you delusional for doing so.
Good! I should certainly hope so! However, you are obviously mistaking
what I mean by "taking myself seriously".

I am not referring to an elevated opinion of myself, but simply to
having enough self-respect to still believe in my principles and
ideals, and to attempt to live up to them at all times.

Which I've managed to do pretty well so far, I might add.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Being afflicted with HFA, taking myself seriously all the time
happens to be one of my main trades. Like it or not, but at least it
ensures that I will retain my selfrespect and integrity, both of
which are far more important to me than to "regular", "healthy"
people.
What you mean is that you will retain your artificially created
reality, if Rex is any example of what you refer to.
Well...
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
I shouldn't judge you by Rex, but it's hard not to given the
similarities.
... apparently I remind you of this Rex so much that you feel the need
to insult me. I have for long tried reasoning with people who insult
me, but experience has taught me that there is no point in that and
that I am best served in my need for peace of mind by simply abstaining
from communicating with such people unless it is absolutely required.

I don't know who this Rex is, but his name sounds American enough. I'm
not an American - although I consistently use US English both in my
speaking and in my spelling - and I'm not even a natively English
speaker, as the message ID's should be able to tell you.

So, I guess this is where you and I nod at eachother and go our own ways
then. I don't have much of an ego - although I realize that it may
come across otherwise, which is another trait of AS/HFA - but I do
honestly think that the majority of the people who know me on Usenet -
and beyond, but that doesn't apply here - would hold more credibility
to what I'm saying than to what you're saying.

By this I don't mean to attack you, but I am pointing out to you that
many people on this newsgroup seem to be publicly doubting your
credibility, and this in the relatively very short span of time that
I've been on this newsgroup.

You are a clearly outspoken Microsoft advocate - which is your
prerogative - who is posting in a Gnu/Linux newsgroup. You won't see
_me_ hanging around any Windows groups however. I disapprove of that.
It goes against my sense of ethics.

So... Shall we let the public opinion decide on who's right and who's
wrong? I am at the disadvantage of not being able to post links to
things that I learned about years ago, but I'm not a storyteller.

Or at least, not here. I do intend on starting to write on a
science-fiction novel in the near future, but I can perfectly discern
reality from imagination. The inability to make this distinction is
typical for schizophrenia, not for Asperger's Syndrome. **grin**
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-23 17:39:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You seem to be the king of saying things are proven or "a fact" when
they're either completely made up or at best a rumor.
Thanks, dude! That ought to win you my sympathy right away... *not!*
I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm questioning your claims. Being an
Aspie, you should understand this behavior, should you not?
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There's no data to determine whether or not this action was something
taken on by the employee themselves, or if it was "ordered". Yes, it
did happen, but a lot differently than you imply and state.
Man, you're just like that other guy on another newsgroup. Anything
that I say about Microsoft is by definition considered a lie or an
exaggeration, which is the same thing as saying "You are guilty,
Microsoft is absolutely innocent".
No, not at all. There's a lot that you said that I didn't question. Did
it ever occur to you that perhaps you didn't have the facts right? You
were even told by a Linux advocate in here that your facts were off base.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Pardon me if i'm skeptical of your "I know a guy" argument. It just
seems to be more of your reiteration of hearsay.
If I remembered his name, I would give it to you. He does use Gnu/Linux
himself but he's also got a MacIntosh system for himself - a laptop I
believe - and he professionally deals with all architectures.
I haven't seen him around in over two years. He was living in the USA
but his name was Scandinavian - I think his first or middle name was
"Jan". He spells out his full name. That's all I can tell you.
I don't care if it's bill gates himself, you're repeating something someone
told you. That's hearsay, and it isn't corroborated by any other story
that's out there. You may trust this person, so much so that you don't
even remember their name it seems, but without anything to back it up, your
"I know a guy, but I don't remember his name, but I trust him implicitly,
so you should as well" argument is pretty bogus.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
As someone else pointed out, you seem to share a lot of mannerisms
with Rex.
Yes, your Flatfish troll friend pointed that out. I don't even know who
this Rex character is, let alone that I would make an attempt to mirror
his behavior.
She/He/It isn't my friend, and i've publicly denounced Her/Him/it on many
occasions.

Let me show you a typical Rex post

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy/msg/0993c54d3deb4564?dmode=source&hl=en

and my typical response to him.

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy/msg/369b42ad7b826924?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
But you both seem to have the same tendancie to invent statistics,
waive rumor and hearsay around as fact, and (at least in Rex's case)
completely imagine events.
If I were to do all of the above, I would be a troll. You yourself have
already been accused of such things by multiple posters on this very
newsgroup, actually.
Yet you can't seem to provide anything to back up your claims. The same is
true of Rex. He makes fantastic claims, stating things are facts, and when
questioned refuses to provide anything to corroborate the claims. For
example, he claims that his work led to the creation of the GPL, Java,
Linux, JavaScript, Cookies, The Web Browser itself, and other technologies.
He claims that Microsoft "interrogated" him and took all his ideas, and
that this is why Windows is now a better platform.

Now, I'll grant you, that you've not yet shown delusions to this level, but
neither did Rex initially. It started much the same as you have here.
Post by Aragorn
I am not a troll, nor do I wish to be one. If that were my ambition, I
would be doing what you are doing now, i.e. participate in
Windows-related newsgroups while openly advocating Gnu/Linux. (Only
that in your case, the two platforms are switched, of course)
If you don't want to be a troll, then you should start by a) providing
references to your claims b) when talking about hearsay or a rumor, state
it as such rather than calling it "a given fact", and c) do a little fact
checking before you post.

If you had simply been wrong or mistaken, then I would not be so
confrontational with you. But, your post was filled with rumor,
half-truth, and mistruth (Note that i'm not calling you a liar at all,
since I believe that you believe everything you've said). Everyone makes
mistakes, and i've certainly made my share, but when there is so much
misinformation, it seems like you are willfully ignoring the facts.
Post by Aragorn
At the same time I can easily put my hand on my heart and state that I
have a flawless reputation in every group I'm in and even in everyday
real life.
Advocacy groups have a way of changing the way people speak. While you may
have a "spotless" reputation in other groups, it's likely because you are
sticking to things that are fact.

Once you start getting into opinion, it has this tendancy to cloud peoples
judgement and obscure their memory of facts, and rely on others opinion as
facts.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The jury's still out on whether you suffer from that last one
yet.
Well, you've already judged me on the other things, so you may as well
go ahead and finish it off. That'll save me the time from replying to
your posts and will save you the annoyance of having to read mine.
Fair enough. I was a bit harsh, but many of your statements showed signs
of either fabrication or gross error. I did jump the gun, and go on the
offensive immediately, and appologize for that.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
I was referring to advocacy groups in general, not OS/2 ones. The
barkto incident was on a technical forum, not an advocacy group.
Which is what I thought. I hadn't even considered that there would have
even been such a thing as an OS/2 advocacy group until you mentioned
it. But of course, considering that OS/2 was an underdog - I've used
the system for about 5 years myself, but not at a time when I had an
Internet (or generic modem) connection - it would be quite strange if
there had _not_ been an OS/2 advocacy group.
Advocacy groups were initially created by the Amiga newsgroup reorg, for
the sole purpose of OS flamewars. This kept such discussions out of the
mainstream groups. The idea was so successful that pretty much every OS
adopted it as well.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Everyone here is already jaded, and doesn't believe anything anyone
says, so why troll there? Why not troll in message boards in less
technical areas, where there will be fewer people to refute your
claims?
That is what I was told to have happened in said case.
What you were told, eh? Pardon my skepticism.
Obviously we have a communications problem here. I was referring to the
trolling of the OS/2 newsgroup having taken place in a regular support
group, not in an advocacy group.
But we're *IN* an advocacy group, and we're talking about whether people in
this group are paid or not.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
That wasn't directed at you in particular, but rather anyone that
takes themselves that seriously. You can certainly take yourself as
seriously as you like, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to
call you delusional for doing so.
Good! I should certainly hope so! However, you are obviously mistaking
what I mean by "taking myself seriously".
I am not referring to an elevated opinion of myself, but simply to
having enough self-respect to still believe in my principles and
ideals, and to attempt to live up to them at all times.
Which I've managed to do pretty well so far, I might add.
That's called Bravado. My point was that if you think that an advocacy
newsgroup is Microsoft's target, then you take your participation in that
group as being of more value than it really is.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
I shouldn't judge you by Rex, but it's hard not to given the
similarities.
... apparently I remind you of this Rex so much that you feel the need
to insult me. I have for long tried reasoning with people who insult
me, but experience has taught me that there is no point in that and
that I am best served in my need for peace of mind by simply abstaining
from communicating with such people unless it is absolutely required.
No, I don't insult you because you remind me of Rex (well, mostly anyways),
but rather because your arguing style is "Here is the world according to
me, and I don't need to supply any evidence to support my claims".

It's always a good idea to provide references when you make claims, and I
do so quite frequently. You may notice that I've consistently provided
references to what I say, while you have not provided one. Not one.
Post by Aragorn
By this I don't mean to attack you, but I am pointing out to you that
many people on this newsgroup seem to be publicly doubting your
credibility, and this in the relatively very short span of time that
I've been on this newsgroup.
Attacking credibility is the most simple form of argument. You should
realize that. If you had made statements, and provided references to them,
then we weouldn't be having this argument for several reasons. First,
researching the references would have made you discover your errors to
begin with. Second, it would leave less room to argue against them.

There's one COLA regular, ghost in the machine, who regularly provides
references to his claims and I have very little argument with him.

The thing to keep in mind is that COLA is basically "an argument society".
It's very purpose is to debate, and that's why it appeals to so many (even
trolls).
Post by Aragorn
You are a clearly outspoken Microsoft advocate - which is your
prerogative - who is posting in a Gnu/Linux newsgroup. You won't see
_me_ hanging around any Windows groups however. I disapprove of that.
It goes against my sense of ethics.
Actually, no. I'm not, in general a Microsoft advocate, though in here I
often come across as one because I know a lot more about Microsoft and
Windows than the average Linux advocate does. I have very strong opinions
about many things for sure, but my primary philosophy is that nothing is
black and white. When I say "There's lots of crap open source software
too" that doesn't mean "Open source software is all crap", it means that
"Just like closed source, there's lots of crap open source". My arguments
are meant to push towards a centrist view rather than an extreme.
Post by Aragorn
So... Shall we let the public opinion decide on who's right and who's
wrong? I am at the disadvantage of not being able to post links to
things that I learned about years ago, but I'm not a storyteller.
Why not? I do this all the time. There is almost always some reference to
something if it truly exists. If you can't find ANY references to these
things you learned, maybe that should tell you that perhaps they're not
really true.
Post by Aragorn
Or at least, not here. I do intend on starting to write on a
science-fiction novel in the near future, but I can perfectly discern
reality from imagination. The inability to make this distinction is
typical for schizophrenia, not for Asperger's Syndrome. **grin**
Valid point. Now that you mention it, Rex does exhibit far more signsh of
schizophrenia, but he does also exhibit signs of Asperger's too.

Again, I appologize for judging you by Rex's behavior, but no small part of
that was your lack of any kind of credible reference to your claims.
Aragorn
2005-09-23 23:21:22 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 23 September 2005 19:39, Erik Funkenbusch stood up and spoke
the following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You seem to be the king of saying things are proven or "a fact" when
they're either completely made up or at best a rumor.
Thanks, dude! That ought to win you my sympathy right away... *not!*
I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm questioning your claims. Being an
Aspie, you should understand this behavior, should you not?
Then you would not have described me as being "the king of saying things
[...]".
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There's no data to determine whether or not this action was
something
taken on by the employee themselves, or if it was "ordered". Yes,
it did happen, but a lot differently than you imply and state.
Man, you're just like that other guy on another newsgroup. Anything
that I say about Microsoft is by definition considered a lie or an
exaggeration, which is the same thing as saying "You are guilty,
Microsoft is absolutely innocent".
No, not at all. There's a lot that you said that I didn't question.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you didn't have the facts right?
You were even told by a Linux advocate in here that your facts were
off base.
This is below the wasteline, since I am aware of that while at the same
time you should also be aware that I asked that poster to set me
straight on what exactly it was that appeared incorrect to him, and
that this poster chose not to provide the evidence.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Pardon me if i'm skeptical of your "I know a guy" argument. It just
seems to be more of your reiteration of hearsay.
If I remembered his name, I would give it to you. He does use
Gnu/Linux himself but he's also got a MacIntosh system for himself -
a laptop I believe - and he professionally deals with all
architectures.
I haven't seen him around in over two years. He was living in the
USA but his name was Scandinavian - I think his first or middle name
was
"Jan". He spells out his full name. That's all I can tell you.
I don't care if it's bill gates himself, you're repeating something
someone told you. That's hearsay, and it isn't corroborated by any
other story that's out there.
This also applies to what _you_ think you know about Gnu/Linux, Erik,
and possibly even more so. It still doesn't stop _you_ from making
claims about Gnu/Linux internals that even I know better than to be
valid.

You see, I actually _*use*_ Gnu/Linux, and I have been providing
assistance to newbies for years. I'm not an engineer or a programmer,
but if I want to know about something, I commit myself to looking into
it.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You may trust this person, so much so that you don't even remember
their name it seems, but without anything to back it up, your "I know
a guy, but I don't remember his name, but I trust him implicitly, so
you should as well" argument is pretty bogus.
I don't remember his exact name because it was a long time ago and I
have had other things going on in my life in the meantime. However,
that person had been around long enough to earn his credibility.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
As someone else pointed out, you seem to share a lot of mannerisms
with Rex.
Yes, your Flatfish troll friend pointed that out. I don't even know
who this Rex character is, let alone that I would make an attempt to
mirror his behavior.
She/He/It isn't my friend, and i've publicly denounced Her/Him/it on
many occasions.
That must then have been before I joined /comp.os.linux.advocacy./ But
then it's also unfair to refer to statements by this(/these?)
individual(s?).
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Let me show you a typical Rex post
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy/msg/0993c54d3deb4564?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
and my typical response to him.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy/msg/369b42ad7b826924?dmode=source&hl=en

Both of these articles are very informative, thank you for the links.

I have very little knowledge about how Microsoft transitioned Hotmail's
infrastructure to native Windows platforms, but what I do know is that
Hotmail did indeed run off of FreeBSD machines when Microsoft acquired
it.

There was indeed a rumor back then that the transition to Windows 2000 -
I don't think NT 4.0 was involved - did not go smoothly. Rex is wrong
however where he claims that Hotmail would be running Gnu/Linux
machines.

As for the rumor of Longhorn having a (BSD?) UNIX kernel, I have also
heard this, but as I seem to have read a little while later, this was
actually an April Fool's joke launched by somebody at Microsoft.

I would actually be thoroughly surprised if Windows were to beget a
UNIX-style kernel, because I don't think Microsoft would be throwing
away years of research and development in regards to the NT kernel.

They could have gone the UNIX way all along to begin with, but they
chose not to, so it wouldn't make sense if they were to suddenly
abandon the NT-based architecture for a UNIX-based one.

It is however true that Microsoft is using some BSD-originating code in
their TCP/IP stack, but that is no surprise. The BSD license allows
for this, and Apple has used a lot more from BSD than MS has, although
nobody whines about that either.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
But you both seem to have the same tendancie to invent statistics,
waive rumor and hearsay around as fact, and (at least in Rex's case)
completely imagine events.
If I were to do all of the above, I would be a troll. You yourself
have already been accused of such things by multiple posters on this
very newsgroup, actually.
Yet you can't seem to provide anything to back up your claims.
I will attempt to provide more documented proof next time. However, to
me, being a Gnu/Linux advocate means that I speak up for Gnu/Linux and
that I believe in its abilities and benefits.

It does not mean that I have to take the word "advocate" literally and
become a lawyer in a trial court, providing this and that evidence,
swaying the public opinions and all.

I know that I'm simply not cut out for that kind of thing, and I will
wisely abstain myself from participating in such debates. You, Erik,
on the other hand seem to be a master in this kind of debating, and
thus, I am no match for you.

This does however not say that I'm always wrong and you're always right.
It only says that you are better at being a lawyer.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The same is true of Rex. He makes fantastic claims, stating things
are facts, and when questioned refuses to provide anything to
corroborate the claims. For example, he claims that his work led to
the creation of the GPL, Java, Linux, JavaScript, Cookies, The Web
Browser itself, and other technologies.
That would be quite a claim... 8-|
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
He claims that Microsoft "interrogated" him and took all
his ideas, and that this is why Windows is now a better platform.
With all due respect, that sounds more like paranoid schizophrenia than
it would like any form of autism. Hmm... Now why does this conjure up
images of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? ;-)
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Now, I'll grant you, that you've not yet shown delusions to this
level, but neither did Rex initially. It started much the same as you
have here.
Both Asperger's Syndrome (and any kind of autism) and schizophrenia are
congenital. This means that people with these afflictions are born
with them. For both disorders, the cause is to be found not in one
defective gene, but in a combination of certain genes.

In the event of schizophrenia, the affliction can remain dormant for
many years, until it is triggered. The usual trigger is a traumatic
event, quite often puberty. It may however linger on dormant for
longer, until a traumatic event in adulthood triggers it.

From then on, the affliction is progressive, which is why schizophrenia
can be considered a disease. The brain of the afflicted person will
start showing more and more chemical imbalance and will continue to
show stranger and stranger reactions, in the form of hallucinations and
delusions. Schizophrenics are often also displaying the symptoms of
manic-depressive disorder.

I know all of the above because I come from a medical training
background myself, because I happen to be autistic myself and because I
happen to personally know three schizophrenics in my personal life and
have done some research on the subject.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
I am not a troll, nor do I wish to be one. If that were my ambition,
I would be doing what you are doing now, i.e. participate in
Windows-related newsgroups while openly advocating Gnu/Linux. (Only
that in your case, the two platforms are switched, of course)
If you don't want to be a troll, then you should start by a) providing
references to your claims b) when talking about hearsay or a rumor,
state it as such rather than calling it "a given fact", and c) do a
little fact checking before you post.
I am attempting to do all of the above, but from now on I will make sure
that I'll be expressing myself more correctly. One of the things that
is typical for Aspies is the linguistic mangling of things.

Words may have a totally different meaning for me than they do for you.
For instance, when you say "fact", you mean something that has been
proven to be correct and for the proof of which documentation does
exist within reach.

However, when I say "fact", I often use that word as a grammatical
factor, i.e. I am making reference to something or listing a number of
things, and I am then constructing my sentence around this or these
references. I will then select the words to make the sentence
grammatically stick.

Perhaps I should be more careful about that, but I'm afraid this is part
of my condition. I don't do that on purpose, it's just the way my
brain composes English sentences. I am not dyslectic - or at least, I
don't think that I am - but dyslexia is considered to be an Autism
Spectrum Disorder, so I wouldn't be surprised if I turned out to have a
small touch of that.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
If you had simply been wrong or mistaken, then I would not be so
confrontational with you. But, your post was filled with rumor,
half-truth, and mistruth (Note that i'm not calling you a liar at all,
since I believe that you believe everything you've said). Everyone
makes mistakes, and i've certainly made my share, but when there is so
much misinformation, it seems like you are willfully ignoring the
facts.
I'm definitely not willfully ignoring any facts. It's not even that I
am totally anti-Windows. I believe that Windows has a purpose and a
place in this world. It's just not my choice of operating system, and
I have to take a deep sigh everytime tries to technically compare
Windows with Gnu/Linux.

Both systems are - and that is what I was trying to point out in my
original post - different from a historical perspective as well as from
a technical perspective. Sedans and Space Shuttles, bicycles and F14
Tomcat's, cats and dogs. One cannot compare them.

As one of the repliers to my original post pointed out, there are people
for whom Windows would be perfect - short of its downsides. However, I
acknowledge the needs of such people, and since Free Software is all
about having the freedom to choose, I don't mind one bit if such people
choose Gnu/Linux.

My advocation of Gnu/Linux and Free & Open Source Software lies in
simply informing the interested of the /fact/ - *;-)* - that Windows is
not the only possibility, and if people want to know why Gnu/Linux
would be technically better, then I feel it's my duty (and my pleasure)
to explain to them why.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
At the same time I can easily put my hand on my heart and state that
I have a flawless reputation in every group I'm in and even in
everyday real life.
Advocacy groups have a way of changing the way people speak. While
you may have a "spotless" reputation in other groups, it's likely
because you are sticking to things that are fact.
Once you start getting into opinion, it has this tendancy to cloud
peoples judgement and obscure their memory of facts, and rely on
others opinion as facts.
Hmm... I suppose you could be right there. The more resilience one
meets, the more eager we are to get the point across... You've got a
point there.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The jury's still out on whether you suffer from that last one
yet.
Well, you've already judged me on the other things, so you may as
well go ahead and finish it off. That'll save me the time from
replying to your posts and will save you the annoyance of having to
read mine.
Fair enough. I was a bit harsh, but many of your statements showed
signs of either fabrication or gross error. I did jump the gun, and
go on the offensive immediately, and appologize for that.
I accept. I'm not a hate-bearing person. ;-)
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
I was referring to advocacy groups in general, not OS/2 ones. The
barkto incident was on a technical forum, not an advocacy group.
Which is what I thought. I hadn't even considered that there would
have even been such a thing as an OS/2 advocacy group until you
mentioned it. But of course, considering that OS/2 was an underdog -
I've used the system for about 5 years myself, but not at a time when
I had an Internet (or generic modem) connection - it would be quite
strange if there had _not_ been an OS/2 advocacy group.
Advocacy groups were initially created by the Amiga newsgroup reorg,
for the sole purpose of OS flamewars. This kept such discussions out
of the mainstream groups. The idea was so successful that pretty much
every OS adopted it as well.
Hmmm... Perhaps this is why people think so lowly about advocacy
groups...: the flamewars...

Well, I have participated in a few flamewars myself, albeit that they
were not advocacy-related but more personality-related, and still I try
to take a deep breath before I speak up.

This is no guarantee that I won't be harsh at some points, but I always
try to mind my language. I don't believe in warfare. I believe in
cooperation.

If man wants to survive the absorbing of Earth and Mars five billion
years into our future or even make it to that point, then cooperation
and peace are the only chances we have.

All our technical prowess will prove totally worthless if our
state-of-the-art million-CPU supercomputer clusters with their 3.600
MyriaByte RAID-24 holographic storage devices and their 256 PetaByte
physical memory are being blown to smithereens by the same type of
nuclear bomb that killed hundreds of thousands of people in Japan sixty
years ago because ethnic group A cannot stand ethnic group B or
something equally ludicrous... ;-)
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
That is what I was told to have happened in said case.
What you were told, eh? Pardon my skepticism.
Obviously we have a communications problem here. I was referring to
the trolling of the OS/2 newsgroup having taken place in a regular
support group, not in an advocacy group.
But we're *IN* an advocacy group, and we're talking about whether
people in this group are paid or not.
Well, I'm not saying that they are being paid to advocate Windows, but
I'm also not saying that they're not. At present day, I mean.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
That wasn't directed at you in particular, but rather anyone that
takes themselves that seriously. You can certainly take yourself as
seriously as you like, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to
call you delusional for doing so.
Good! I should certainly hope so! However, you are obviously
mistaking what I mean by "taking myself seriously".
I am not referring to an elevated opinion of myself, but simply to
having enough self-respect to still believe in my principles and
ideals, and to attempt to live up to them at all times.
Which I've managed to do pretty well so far, I might add.
That's called Bravado. My point was that if you think that an
advocacy newsgroup is Microsoft's target, then you take your
participation in that group as being of more value than it really is.
Well, I certainly did not join this newsgroup thinking that Microsoft
was targeting it or sending out people to it. It would be possible,
but I didn't give that any thought in my decision for joining this
group, and nor do I give it thought in my replying to someone.

Not unless I explicitly mention it, and then still it is quite possible
that I only do so in order to get some sort of response from the other
person in regards to his motives for being here or saying what he says.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
I shouldn't judge you by Rex, but it's hard not to given the
similarities.
... apparently I remind you of this Rex so much that you feel the
need to insult me. I have for long tried reasoning with people who
insult me, but experience has taught me that there is no point in
that and that I am best served in my need for peace of mind by simply
abstaining from communicating with such people unless it is
absolutely required.
No, I don't insult you because you remind me of Rex (well, mostly
anyways), but rather because your arguing style is "Here is the world
according to me, and I don't need to supply any evidence to support my
claims".
Well, I think I covered this higher up in my reply.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
It's always a good idea to provide references when you make claims,
and I do so quite frequently. You may notice that I've consistently
provided references to what I say, while you have not provided one.
Not one.
As above... ;-)
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
By this I don't mean to attack you, but I am pointing out to you that
many people on this newsgroup seem to be publicly doubting your
credibility, and this in the relatively very short span of time that
I've been on this newsgroup.
Attacking credibility is the most simple form of argument. You should
realize that. If you had made statements, and provided references to
them, then we weouldn't be having this argument for several reasons.
First, researching the references would have made you discover your
errors to begin with. Second, it would leave less room to argue
against them.
Well, I was surely not expecting that I would need to become a lawyer in
order to participate in this group. I may be very eloquent - or so
others have repeatedly told me - but I know I'm quite poor at
lawyer-style debating.

One of the reasons for this is that I get too emotional, and by this I
don't mean that I will flare up easily, but rather that I am easily
intimidated. An unfortunate conditioning from my youth up to my
young-adulthood that has haunted me ever since and has ruined a lot for
me.

I'm not saying this to gain sympathy. I'm saying it as the logical
explanation behind my behavior. :-/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There's one COLA regular, ghost in the machine, who regularly provides
references to his claims and I have very little argument with him.
I've come across his posts and I appreciate them.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The thing to keep in mind is that COLA is basically "an argument
society". It's very purpose is to debate, and that's why it appeals to
so many (even trolls).
I understand this much, yes.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
You are a clearly outspoken Microsoft advocate - which is your
prerogative - who is posting in a Gnu/Linux newsgroup. You won't see
_me_ hanging around any Windows groups however. I disapprove of
that. It goes against my sense of ethics.
Actually, no. I'm not, in general a Microsoft advocate, though in
here I often come across as one because I know a lot more about
Microsoft and Windows than the average Linux advocate does. I have
very strong opinions about many things for sure, but my primary
philosophy is that nothing is black and white. When I say "There's
lots of crap open source software too" that doesn't mean "Open source
software is all crap", it means that "Just like closed source, there's
lots of crap open source". My arguments are meant to push towards a
centrist view rather than an extreme.
Fair enough. ;-)
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
So... Shall we let the public opinion decide on who's right and
who's wrong? I am at the disadvantage of not being able to post
links to things that I learned about years ago, but I'm not a
storyteller.
Why not? I do this all the time. There is almost always some
reference to something if it truly exists. If you can't find ANY
references to these things you learned, maybe that should tell you
that perhaps they're not really true.
... or that I wouldn't know where to start looking or how exactly to
retrieve that which I really seek to find amidst truckloads of useless
information... :-/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Or at least, not here. I do intend on starting to write on a
science-fiction novel in the near future, but I can perfectly discern
reality from imagination. The inability to make this distinction is
typical for schizophrenia, not for Asperger's Syndrome. **grin**
Valid point. Now that you mention it, Rex does exhibit far more
signsh of schizophrenia, but he does also exhibit signs of Asperger's
too.
Again, I appologize for judging you by Rex's behavior, but no small
part of that was your lack of any kind of credible reference to your
claims.
Schizophrenics often _do_ come across as exhibiting signs of Asperger's
Syndrome or other forms of autism - John Nash, the mid-20th Century
Nobel Prize winner in Mathematical Analysis, was a schizophrenic - and
while certain co-occurrences of both schizophrenia and an Autism
Spectrum disorder in one person do exist, they are however rare.

Generally, the diagnosis will turn out to be only positive for
schizophrenia.
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-23 00:11:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:22:57 GMT, Aragorn wrote:

By the way, I notice that of everything I said, you chose only to respond
to the one portion that had the least amount of importance.

Funny that.
Roy Culley
2005-09-23 00:30:29 UTC
Permalink
begin risky.vbs
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
By the way, I notice that of everything I said, you chose only to
respond to the one portion that had the least amount of importance.
Funny that.
Fsck'ing hilarious coming from you Funkenbusch. No one, bar none, who
posts to COLA avoids answering replies to their FUD and lies as you.
Pot, kettle, black.
--
Rich Bell in thread: Things I couldn't do if I switched to Linux
Message-ID: <tB7Oe.182$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>
I am connected to the Net using a Linksys WRT54G router. I don't
get hacked.
Lisa Cottmann
2005-09-22 11:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...
OMG!

It's Rexx Ballard on STEROIDS!!
Post by Aragorn
The first reason is that I'm an Aspie, i.e. I have Asperger's Syndrome,
otherwise known as High Functioning Autism. I have already stated this
on this newsgroup, as well as on other newsgroups I participate in.
You'll fit right in with this group....
Have you met Peter Kohlmann yet?

On a serious note though, you are obviously well educated, well
spoken/written and have a sense of humor as well.
These are good traits to have in today's sorry world.
Post by Aragorn
--
With kind regards,
*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Kier
2005-09-22 11:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...
OMG!
It's Rexx Ballard on STEROIDS!!
You're giving yourself away again, flatfish. No one else calls Rex Ballard
'Rexx'.
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Post by Aragorn
The first reason is that I'm an Aspie, i.e. I have Asperger's Syndrome,
otherwise known as High Functioning Autism. I have already stated this
on this newsgroup, as well as on other newsgroups I participate in.
You'll fit right in with this group....
There are a lot of bright people here, yes.
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Have you met Peter Kohlmann yet?
On a serious note though, you are obviously well educated, well
spoken/written and have a sense of humor as well.
These are good traits to have in today's sorry world.
It's a pity you fail so miserably to show those traits yourself.
--
Kier
Aragorn
2005-09-22 12:34:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 13:54, Kier stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Kier
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long
post! There are two reasons as to why...
OMG!
It's Rexx Ballard on STEROIDS!!
You're giving yourself away again, flatfish. No one else calls Rex
Ballard 'Rexx'.
"Lisa" obviously also overlooked the fact that my post mentioned her
being in my /killfile,/ and that I therefore would not see "her" reply.

Speaking of ReXX... ;-) I used to write up a lot of stuff in that while
I was using OS/2. It's a good thing it's supported on Gnu/Linux as
well. ;-)
Post by Kier
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Post by Aragorn
The first reason is that I'm an Aspie, i.e. I have Asperger's
Syndrome, otherwise known as High Functioning Autism. I have
already stated this on this newsgroup, as well as on other
newsgroups I participate in.
You'll fit right in with this group....
There are a lot of bright people here, yes.
I agree. Gnu/Linux users are generally very intelligent people. It
takes a certain level of intelligence to discern quality. ;-)
Post by Kier
Post by Lisa Cottmann
Have you met Peter Kohlmann yet?
On a serious note though, you are obviously well educated, well
spoken/written and have a sense of humor as well.
These are good traits to have in today's sorry world.
It's a pity you fail so miserably to show those traits yourself.
It's more of a pity even that "she" hasn't read my post in its entirety
- which shows from the fact that "she" replied to me although I did
state that "she" was in my /killfile/ - or else there could have been a
chance that "she" would forsake the lies by being confronted with just
what a great operating system Gnu/Linux really is, and why it deserves
advocation...
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Linønut
2005-09-22 11:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...
Some of your points about technology are incorrect. Be careful not to
take too broad a swipe at COLA or even Microsoft.
Aragorn
2005-09-22 12:19:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 13:46, Linønut stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Linønut
Post by Aragorn
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long
post! There are two reasons as to why...
Some of your points about technology are incorrect.
And am I supposed to guess which ones? ;-) You haven't singled them out
in a quoted section... ;-)
Post by Linønut
Be careful not to take too broad a swipe at COLA or even Microsoft.
Taking a swipe at C.O.L.A.? Where according to you did I take a swipe
at this newsgroup? The only thing one could possibly take offense in
was my statement that I had been warned about C.O.L.A. being "a sewer",
which was a quote and which is not something I've made up.

I _have_ actually literally been warned in that way, and with those very
words. This is all I have stated. I also think I've pointed out that
I don't share this conviction.

As for Microsoft, I think I have the right to take a swipe at them for
the reasons mentioned, just like any other intelligent human being.

Just because Microsoft is a multi-billionaire multinational doesn't mean
that they've got the right to bend the rules, ignore compliance with
standards such as those from the W3C while superimposing their own,
send out trolls to Usenet groups, spread FUD about Gnu/Linux on their
and other websites, bribe government officials in overseas countries -
and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the USA as well - or make
anti-FOSS deals with hardware vendors and whatever other foul play they
indulge in.

Geez, they've even applied for a patent on the use of emoticons, and
we're not supposed to criticize them? Well, fortunately I don't live
in the second coming of the Soviet Union.

Freedom of speech is still a constitutional right here in my country,
unless it implies racism. And I'm definitely not a racist. In fact,
that thread about the New Orleans disaster in which racist crap was
being posted was one of the first threads I killed when I subscribed to
C.O.L.A.

You and I may be on the same side in respect to advocating Gnu/Linux and
FOSS, but if you feel like you have a valid criticism on anything I
have written, then I must ask you to point out to me where exactly you
think I have crossed the line, and you must prove me wrong.

If I _have_ made any mistakes - and I don't think I have - then I think
I also have the right to know which ones, and then I will gladly stand
corrected.
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Linønut
2005-09-22 17:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
If I _have_ made any mistakes - and I don't think I have - then I think
I also have the right to know which ones, and then I will gladly stand
corrected.
It's unimportant. I should have hit :q!
--
Code is community.
chrisv
2005-09-22 12:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
*buffer overflow*
-rwxrw-r--
2005-09-22 15:29:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 01:07 am, Aragorn had this to say in
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long post!
There are two reasons as to why...
<snip>

Aragorn,

Thank you for a most informative post! I've been a fan of your writing for a
long time now and have saved many of your articles. Both for the technical
information they contain and also for your all-so-clear understanding of
the philosophy behind GNU/Linux. I've taken the liberty to post this
article on my weblog, as it'll be indexed in Google's web space and on
other blogs.
--
Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html
Aragorn
2005-09-22 16:04:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 17:29, -rwxrw-r-- stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by -rwxrw-r--
On Thursday 22 September 2005 01:07 am, Aragorn had this to say in
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
First of all, brace yourselves. This is going to be a *VERY* long
post! There are two reasons as to why...
<snip>
Aragorn,
Thank you for a most informative post!
You're welcome. ;-)
Post by -rwxrw-r--
I've been a fan of your writing for a long time now and have saved
many of your articles. Both for the technical information they contain
and also for your all-so-clear understanding of the philosophy behind
GNU/Linux.
Ehm... Wow! Ehm... **flattered** :-) I do remember your pseudonym from
a long time ago on AOLM... Maybe it was even from when I was still
using my original nick. You know, the one that started with the epic,
poetic "B"... ;-)
Post by -rwxrw-r--
I've taken the liberty to post this article on my weblog, as it'll be
indexed in Google's web space and on other blogs.
That's a good idea, and I'm not just saying this because I wrote that
piece ! **lol** We should actually get more stuff like that posted -
whomever writes it up.

There's this guy on /alt.os.linux.mandrake/ called Blinky the Shark, and
he's got an entire website set up with stuff about Gnu/Linux and
Usenet. He's also got a funny section with quotes from ridiculous
requests for help, etc. ;-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
William Poaster
2005-09-22 15:47:19 UTC
Permalink
begin trojan.vbs It was on Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:07:46 +0000, that Aragorn
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
<snipped for brevity>

That was a good post, IMO. :-)

I always read your posts with interest.
--
To mess up a Linux box, you need to work at it;
to mess up your Windows box, you just need to work on it.
-- Scott Granneman --
Senior consultant for Bryan Consulting Inc. in St. Louis
Slinky
2005-09-22 17:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
snip <
Thankyou for your post, it was a good read also very informative! I have
been on this newsgroup for all of two days, and this is my first reply.
(please dont burn me or flame me whatever the correct term is lol) I have
been using linux for a number of years but have never really had the heart
to come on to one of these things, simply for the reason of little kiddies
messing about. (i hear a lot of bad press re these things)
Recently i have decided to bite the bullet and "have a look around"
any yes
the little kiddies are on here but also there are the posters like your
good self that try to put the facts across and not just burn/flame someone
for not having the same opinion. My resons for joining up was to put my
experience across to any newbies that wandered here looking for help.
(although i see its not needed :)
As to the kiddies playing, well mayhap its no bad thing as it does
generate
a lot of discussion, and to date (i have read quite a few threads in full)
i have yet to come across one of these threads where the kiddie does not
end up looking like a complete tit, (excuse the language) but there can be
a lot of usefull info on them as well.
I am not here to bash Windoze or anyone as you use what you use i
dont
care, what i will say though if it wasnt microsoft it would be something
else! Its good to have a "bad guy" <g>

Anyway hope i have done this right and it gets posted lol.
Please keep in mind this is my first post and first time using Knode.

<------hunts for fire blanket
--
Slinky

Registered Linux user #398973
Aragorn
2005-09-22 17:42:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 19:19, Slinky stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Slinky
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
snip
Thankyou for your post, it was a good read also very informative! I
have been on this newsgroup for all of two days, and this is my first
reply. (please dont burn me or flame me whatever the correct term is
lol) I have been using linux for a number of years but have never
really had the heart to come on to one of these things, simply for the
reason of little kiddies messing about. (i hear a lot of bad press re
these things)
Well, they're not all kiddies, and some are quite subtle, which I - due
to my HFA - cannot always decypher so easily.... ;-)
Post by Slinky
Recently i have decided to bite the bullet and "have a look
around" any yes the little kiddies are on here but also there are the
posters like your good self that try to put the facts across and not
just burn/flame someone for not having the same opinion.
Well, as Kier told me in his reply, this is after all an advocacy group,
and thus the debate is about the promotion of Gnu/Linux. So in fact,
this sort of thing is actually part of the unofficial job description
we have here... ;-)
Post by Slinky
My resons for joining up was to put my experience across to any
newbies that wandered here looking for help. (although i see its not
needed :)
Well, sometimes I see technical posts here, in the sense of somebody
asking for advice on how to to this or that, but those posts - while I
presume many of us would reply to them - are actually beyond the scope
of this newsgroup, and there are plenty of other, more technically
oriented newsgroups for seeking assistance.

I myself also started out on Usenet as someone who decided to share my
experiences and help the newbies. I had already installed Gnu/Linux on
my system from months before I even had an Internet connection at home,
so I got by without any Usenet help - which means that it's not all
that difficult to get Gnu/Linux up and running if you only care to Read
The /Fine/ Manuals. ;-)

My first installation was Mandrake 6.0, by the way, which was by far not
as userfriendly and handholding as the current distributions are. ;-)
Post by Slinky
As to the kiddies playing, well mayhap its no bad thing as it
does generate a lot of discussion, and to date (i have read quite a
few threads in full) i have yet to come across one of these threads
where the kiddie does not end up looking like a complete tit, (excuse
the language) but there can be a lot of usefull info on them as well.
True... The trolling actually causes the opposite effect of what the
trolls would like to see. They come and spread FUD, while the number
of reactions they get - and particularly the well-thought-out ones -
actually *proves* them wrong and *does* advocate Gnu/Linux and FOSS.
Post by Slinky
I am not here to bash Windoze or anyone as you use what you
use i dont care, what i will say though if it wasnt microsoft it would
be something else! Its good to have a "bad guy" <g>
Well, I guess we'll never know what the world would have looked like
without Microsoft. It is quite possible that we'd never even have the
ability to use microcomputers, as they were after all the big factor in
the proliferation of the microcomputer. On the other hand, that is
just one thing they did, and much more of what they did had far more
negative consequences.

As the company grew, apparently so did its fangs and its thirst for any
competition's blood.
Post by Slinky
Anyway hope i have done this right and it gets posted lol.
Please keep in mind this is my first post and first time using Knode.
Well, your formatting looks a bit strange - I had to re-align your
paragraphs as the first two lines of each paragraph were indented, but
maybe that was your own choice?

Other than that, it looks good... ;-)
Post by Slinky
<------hunts for fire blanket
For a first-timer, you avoided the biggest and firstmost mistake newbies
tend to make...: you didn't top-post... ;-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
7
2005-09-22 17:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
Thank you that was excellent post.

Fresh information ammo to smack down windopes from newsgroups
to chair throwing board rooms.
Aragorn
2005-09-22 17:56:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 19:29, 7 stood up and spoke the following
words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by 7
Post by Aragorn
Dear Newbies and Fellow Gnu/Linux Users,
Thank you that was excellent post.
Fresh information ammo to smack down windopes from newsgroups
to chair throwing board rooms.
Thank you - and all others - for reading it! And there I was, thinking
that it hadn't even gotten through as I didn't see the post myself - I
still don't, actually - and nobody had reacted to it yet.

But then again, I had overlooked the fact that many posters here are in
a different timezone from me, and that /Lisa's/ reply ended up in my
/killfile,/ so I didn't get to see that one either. ;-)

All of the above, plus having been up since before 19.00h yesterday -
it's 20.00h here now - and having had a migraine while I was writing on
that post. ;-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-22 21:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
For the newbie: A troll is a person who joins a newsgroup with the
intention of stirring up trouble between the participants of this
group, in the form of an attack on the main topic of the newsgroup.
...
Post by Aragorn
Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to be
some kind of *threat* to them.
No, most frequently, a troll is merely looking for a reaction, and enjoys
stirring things up for their own amusement. They will often argue one way
in one newsgroup, and argue the other way in an opposed newsgroup, just get
reactions. Note the includsion of alt.locksmithing in a number of trolls
posts, because it has nothing to do with Linux, and therefore stirs up even
more trouble.
Post by Aragorn
So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...
You have suddenly jumped the logic tracks. There are any number of reasons
why people argue the way they do, but "fear" is only one possibility. Many
trolls still inhabit the OS/2 newsgroups, for instance, and NOBODY is
afraid that OS/2 is coming back from the dead. Trolls inhabit all kinds of
groups, and the only real common thread is that they are doing it for
enjoyment. Not fear.
Post by Aragorn
While it is true that every operating system and every software product
contains bugs and flaws - after all, the people who write up that code
are only human - it is a given fact that FOSS products are of a
substantially higher quality than proprietary software products.
"It is a given fact"? By what measure? The vast majority of Open Source
software is total crap, much of it being half finished, or "good enough"
for whatever itch they needed scratched. Of that software, there is a
small percentage that is popular enough to get regular maintenance and
enhancement by enough people to make a difference.

Yes, there is some amazing quality open source software, but this doesn't
mean all, or even most of it is of the same calibre. When you're talking
100's of thousands of open source programs, a great deal of it is going to
be crap, just like a great deal of non-open source software is crap.
Post by Aragorn
In other words, the developers of proprietary software usually only
develop their code on a nine-to-five basis. There is less commitment
to creativity and perfection than with the FOSS developers, who write
up their software on a voluntarily basis and with their fullest
motivation and enthusiasm.
The knife cuts both ways. There is no measure of skill required to write
open source software (some might argue the same for closed source, but
someone has hire the developers, and they usually have to meet certain
criteria). And, while many open source developers are skilled, many more
are not, and create unmaintainable, bug ridden pieces of crap. Just
because it's open source doesn't mean it's of higher quality.
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft programmers have already confirmed "off the record" that
Windows typically ships with some 60'000 bugs, of which some 20'000 are
_*fatal*_ to the system's stability and/or integrity. And _this_ is
what _you_ as a user pay big dough for, even if it's
You just pulled this figure out of your ass. You made it up. Completely.
The only thing that comes close is the much vaulted "65,000" bugs that
Win2k shipped with, the vast majority of which were probably not even bugs
(but rather feature requests, user error reprots, etc..). Your 20,000
number is completely bogus and has no basis in fact.
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft Windows was originally developed as a GUI-oriented add-on for
MS-DOS.
While that's true, Windows today comes from a totally different code
base... The NT code base, designed by VMS designer Dave Cutler. The API
itself is still modeled on the old Windows API, and it provides ample
"emulation" of older stuff, the core OS itself is not derived from DOS *AT
ALL*
Post by Aragorn
The server functionality of Windows is just an add-on, regardless of how
extensive it may be, or how extensive Microsoft wants businesses to
believe, and the functionality is seriously crippled by the existence
of Windows as a GUI-only system - with a very limited and emulated
commandline interface - and by its licensing, which prohibits anyone
from modifying the system's binary code or design.
You seem to have a very skewed idea of what a "server" is. All a "server"
is is a collection of functions that service remote client computers. As
such, *ALL* servers for *ALL* os's are just "add-ons", no matter how
extensive they may be.
Post by Aragorn
Windows has poor memory management - particularly where it concerns the
paging of memory to the hard disk - and has no security built-in unless
the NTFS filesystem is used. This filesystem - as well as the /vfat/
filesystem, otherwise known to Windows users as "FAT32" - severely
fragments over a very short period of time, inducing severe stability
and performance penalties.
Bullshit. There are no "stability" issues with fragmentation on NTFS.
There were some problems on FAT, but FAT was not a very stable file system.
NTFS is the default file system for Windows, and if you choose to use it,
such security is fully enforced. Security is also more than just your
filesystem. NT has a fine grained security model throughtout it's core,
including memory allocations, kernel objects, kernel file objects (whether
the filesystem supports security or not), etc..

Also, Windows memory management is just fine. It's *DIFFERENT* than what
Linux or Unix has, but that doesn't make it poor. It just makes it
designed with different trade-offs. Linux/Unix memory management has it's
own unique set of problems, for instance the tendancy of the system to kill
random processes when swap fills up, rather than simply failing allocations
and letting the apps deal with it.
Post by Aragorn
Windows also needlessly uses Remote Procedure Calls - also known as
"RPC" - for internal inter-process communication, which greatly renders
the system vulnerable to cracking attacks from the outside. Thus
arises the absolute *_need_* for Windows users to install a firewalling
application or invest in a hardware firewall.
Bullshit agian. Windows use LRPC or Local Remote Procedure Calls, not RPC.
LRPC is akin to unix domain sockets, and are implemented with shared
memory, rather than sockets. LRPC has the same problems and difficulties
as unix domain sockets, but security is not one of them.

Windows *DOES* use RPC for client/server functionality, but then so does
Unix.
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The kernel is the central part of an operating system. It
manages the process scheduling, the memory and the I/O. Monolithic
kernels also manage the hardware. Microkernels leave this aspect to
userspace drivers, i.e. drivers that run in the CPU's lowest privilege
mode. All modern microprocessors have four privilege level /rings,/
numbered from 0 (highest) to 3 (lowest). All modern operating systems
only use /rings/ 0 (kernelspace) and 3 (userspace).
Wrong. Pretty much only x86 has 4 privilege levels. For example, the
PowerPC processor only has 2 (superuser and user). This is why NT, being
written as a portable OS, only uses 2, rather than 4.
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The NT-based versions of Windows are also multi-threading, but
Windows is actually an end-user-oriented platform and so its server,
security and multi-user functionalities are not part of its design.
They are added on as additional layers on top of the base design,
contrary to what is the case in UNIX operating systems.
Bullshit again. NT was designed from the beginning to be a server and a
workstation. "Server security" is non-sense. There's no such thing. A
server is only as secure as the applications that run on it. There is no
special "server security" in Linux, though certain attempts have been made
at that such as with SELinux, with varying degrees of success. SELinux is
more of a process with some extra tools, which I might add, include things
that are standard in Windows (ACL's) but not in Linux.
Post by Aragorn
So what about the numbers? Does Microsoft have the largest share in the
desktop market? Yes, it does. Unmistakably! Do they earn that?
Considering the poor design and quality of their products, considering
their unfair alliances and monopolist techniques, the answer is "No,
they do not."
Regardless of any of that, true or not, Microsoft earned its position by
BEING THERE when people needed it. Linux took almost a decade to become a
usable desktop system, and is still no there in terms of desktop parity.
Simply put, Linux was not CAPABLE of having the market share that Windows
did until very recently, and by then the maket share was already gone. Not
that it can't be earned back, but it's much more difficult after the fact.

Unix also spent more time in the 80's fighting each other, and ignoring
Windows, to Unix's detriment. It left a BAD taste in many peopls mouths,
and it took more than a decade for peoples opinions to start to turn
around.

Windows also capitalized on that.
Post by Aragorn
Will they keep their grip on this market? We don't know, and we don't
really care. All we care about is that we can hold on to our freedom
to choose another operating system than that which Microsoft and its
grunts dictate.
If you don't care, then what's this diatribe about then?
Post by Aragorn
But how about the server market? Is it really true that Microsoft
dominates that one too? No, not by a long shot! Most server systems
connected to the Internet are running proprietary UNIX, Gnu/Linux or
one of the Open Source BSD's, i.e. FreeBSD - which is also used as the
basis for Apple's OS X - NetBSD or OpenBSD.
Apart from the fact that you have no real data to support that claim, and
it would be difficult to prove, we can see that in many markets Microsoft
dominates, and Internet servers are only a small percentage of total
servers. For example, the last proveable survey I saw from netcraft on
physical server OS counts, Windows accounts for more than 50% of the
physical web servers on the internet (not to be confused with hosts, which
are just ip addresses, of which a single server can h ave many).
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft does own a large percentage of the server market, but not even
half of it. Another, smaller section of the server market still relies
on Novell's Netware, possibly uses some older VMS system or may be
using the server version of Apple's OS X. These numbers are
negligible, though.
Linux/Unix combined only have 28.3% of the server market. So where are you
getting these numbers. Right, you make them up.

http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=P5013_0_6_0_C
Aragorn
2005-09-23 01:58:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday 22 September 2005 23:31, Erik Funkenbusch stood up and spoke
the following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
For the newbie: A troll is a person who joins a newsgroup with the
intention of stirring up trouble between the participants of this
group, in the form of an attack on the main topic of the newsgroup.
...
Post by Aragorn
Apparently, trolls are all people who consider Gnu/Linux and FOSS to
be some kind of *threat* to them.
No, most frequently, a troll is merely looking for a reaction, and
enjoys stirring things up for their own amusement. They will often
argue one way in one newsgroup, and argue the other way in an opposed
newsgroup, just get reactions.
I was actually referring to the Win-trolls, considering that we are in a
Gnu/Linux group.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Note the includsion of alt.locksmithing in a number of trolls posts,
because it has nothing to do with Linux, and therefore stirs up even
more trouble.
Or maybe you are just missing the obvious and the troll is actually
simply including that newsgroup because he/she normally resides there
with his/her friends, who would appreciate a good laugh.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
So they are obviously afraid of something; something that Gnu/Linux
would cause to happen or would cause to get exposed...
You have suddenly jumped the logic tracks.
No I haven't. If you had read the posts from that troll more carefully,
then you would have noticed that the troll was stipulating certain
half-truths (as well as lies) concerning certain areas of Gnu/Linux
deployment that obviously seem to construe fear and doubt.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There are any number of reasons why people argue the way they do, but
"fear" is only one possibility. Many trolls still inhabit the OS/2
newsgroups, for instance, and NOBODY is afraid that OS/2 is coming
back from the dead. Trolls inhabit all kinds of groups, and the only
real common thread is that they are doing it for enjoyment. Not fear.
I have addressed my point of view in the paragraph higher up.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
While it is true that every operating system and every software
product contains bugs and flaws - after all, the people who write up
that code are only human - it is a given fact that FOSS products are
of a substantially higher quality than proprietary software products.
"It is a given fact"? By what measure? The vast majority of Open
Source software is total crap, much of it being half finished, or
"good enough" for whatever itch they needed scratched. Of that
software, there is a small percentage that is popular enough to get
regular maintenance and enhancement by enough people to make a
difference.
I wouldn't expect you to agree with me. That is after all why you are a
Windows/Microsoft supporter while I am not.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Yes, there is some amazing quality open source software, but this
doesn't mean all, or even most of it is of the same calibre. When
you're talking 100's of thousands of open source programs, a great
deal of it is going to be crap, just like a great deal of non-open
source software is crap.
Let's not debate about the percentages. I stick with what I have said.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
In other words, the developers of proprietary software usually only
develop their code on a nine-to-five basis. There is less commitment
to creativity and perfection than with the FOSS developers, who write
up their software on a voluntarily basis and with their fullest
motivation and enthusiasm.
The knife cuts both ways. There is no measure of skill required to
write open source software (some might argue the same for closed
source, but someone has hire the developers, and they usually have to
meet certain criteria).
This is true, and I forgot to point that out, but I did state that most
of the developers - and we *are* talking about the serious ones, those
who are involved in the development of the base Gnu operating system,
the Linux kernel, the Mach-plus-Hurd kernel and any serious
distribution.

I am not referring to someone who doesn't have a clue about programming
but decides to throw some code together and publish it. This does not
even apply to FOSS only, but also to the countless Windows-based
shareware and freeware tools in existence.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
And, while many open source developers are skilled, many
more are not, and create unmaintainable, bug ridden pieces of crap.
Just because it's open source doesn't mean it's of higher quality.
The availability and modifiability of the source code guarantees that
the code is scrutinized by a lot more skilled contributors than is the
case with the code written under proprietary and closed licenses.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft programmers have already confirmed "off the record" that
Windows typically ships with some 60'000 bugs, of which some 20'000
are _*fatal*_ to the system's stability and/or integrity. And _this_
is what _you_ as a user pay big dough for, even if it's
You just pulled this figure out of your ass. You made it up.
No I did not. I got my information from reading about it in an unbiased
medium.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Completely. The only thing that comes close is the much vaulted
"65,000" bugs that Win2k shipped with, the vast majority of which were
probably not even bugs (but rather feature requests, user error
reprots, etc..).
Oh, so you are saying I'm making it up and then you are referring to a
historic fact with an even higher amount of bugs than I mentioned in my
original post? I'd say someone is contradicting himself here, and it
isn't me.

But of course, nobody would expect you to admit that those bugs could
indeed have been fatal or serious. At least, I didn't say that all of
them were.

I quoted the 20'000 as being fatal, which is 1/3 of the 60'000 I
mentioned, of which _you_ first say that I made it up and then that the
number is actually 65'000. That's like saying "I have never done such
a thing in my life, and either way, I'll never do that again".

I think you've just lost a great deal of your credibility, Erik.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Your 20,000 number is completely bogus and has no basis in fact.
That number came from the same source and even the very same sentence as
the 60'000 number.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft Windows was originally developed as a GUI-oriented add-on
for MS-DOS.
While that's true, Windows today comes from a totally different code
base... The NT code base, designed by VMS designer Dave Cutler. The
API itself is still modeled on the old Windows API, and it provides
ample "emulation" of older stuff, the core OS itself is not derived
from DOS *AT ALL*
I addressed this topic lower in my post, and therefore I didn't say that
the OS core (in NT) comes from DOS. The Windows kernel part of Windows
95/98/ME was still in essence very much the same as in Windows 3.11,
but modernized in regards to that one.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
The server functionality of Windows is just an add-on, regardless of
how extensive it may be, or how extensive Microsoft wants businesses
to believe, and the functionality is seriously crippled by the
existence of Windows as a GUI-only system - with a very limited and
emulated commandline interface - and by its licensing, which
prohibits anyone from modifying the system's binary code or design.
You seem to have a very skewed idea of what a "server" is. All a
"server" is is a collection of functions that service remote client
computers. As such, *ALL* servers for *ALL* os's are just "add-ons",
no matter how extensive they may be.
Exactly, or at least, for as far as Windows servers are concerned.
However, Windows is *not* a native multi-user system - it only allows
multi-user-style connections through a services set applied on top of
the kernel - while the Linux and UNIX kernels *are.*

Additionally, Windows does *not* feature kernel-built-in security or
else it would never be possible to install the system itself on - and
boot it from - an insecure filesystem with no support whatsoever for
file ownerships. Instead, it needs a pluggable filesystem to implement
a basic form of security.

Considering both of the above, I do not consider Windows to natively
*be* a servergrade operating system, and historically, it already
wasn't one to boot.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Windows has poor memory management - particularly where it concerns
the paging of memory to the hard disk - and has no security built-in
unless the NTFS filesystem is used. This filesystem - as well as the
/vfat/ filesystem, otherwise known to Windows users as "FAT32" -
severely fragments over a very short period of time, inducing severe
stability and performance penalties.
Bullshit. There are no "stability" issues with fragmentation on NTFS.
There were some problems on FAT, but FAT was not a very stable file
system. NTFS is the default file system for Windows, and if you choose
to use it, such security is fully enforced.
It may be the filesystem that is chosen for installation on a partition
by default, but it does not make it the default filesystem for Windows.
Windows can run just as well or as poorly from a /vfat/ partition.

As for the stability issues, I have known NT to go flat out on its face
over a too fragmented filesystem, because the I/O scheduling couldn't
keep up with the process scheduling anymore.

Well, that's just one of the scenarios in which Windows goes flat out on
its face.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Security is also more than just your filesystem.
Exactly. And without NTFS, Windows has none.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
NT has a fine grained security model throughtout it's core, including
memory allocations, kernel objects, kernel file objects (whether the
filesystem supports security or not), etc..
These things are quite futile without NTFS and are no more than an
improved version of the already existing security measures in OS/2.
These security measures are also far more related to stability than to
actual security.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Also, Windows memory management is just fine. It's *DIFFERENT* than
what Linux or Unix has, but that doesn't make it poor. It just makes
it designed with different trade-offs.
The fact that the Windows kernel maps out memory to a pagefile that sits
in the regular filesystem just like any other file - with the sole
exception that it's been given the "S" filesystem attribute - causes
the swapfile itself - and thus its contents - to be loaded into memory
again upon feeding the cache.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Linux/Unix memory management has it's own unique set of problems, for
instance the tendancy of the system to kill random processes when swap
fills up, rather than simply failing allocations and letting the apps
deal with it.
To my knowledge, the Linux kernel will not kill random processes but
will simply avoid new processes from being created. It will also
preserve a certain amount of free physical RAM so that the superuser
can log in and do the killing of processes himself.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Windows also needlessly uses Remote Procedure Calls - also known as
"RPC" - for internal inter-process communication, which greatly
renders the system vulnerable to cracking attacks from the outside.
Thus arises the absolute *_need_* for Windows users to install a
firewalling application or invest in a hardware firewall.
Bullshit agian. Windows use LRPC or Local Remote Procedure Calls, not
RPC. LRPC is akin to unix domain sockets, and are implemented with
shared memory, rather than sockets. LRPC has the same problems and
difficulties as unix domain sockets, but security is not one of them.
Windows *DOES* use RPC for client/server functionality, but then so
does Unix.
To my knowledge, Windows does use RPC with sockets in some areas of its
IPC, where this could be avoided and replaced by the model you are
describing.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The kernel is the central part of an operating system. It
manages the process scheduling, the memory and the I/O. Monolithic
kernels also manage the hardware. Microkernels leave this aspect to
userspace drivers, i.e. drivers that run in the CPU's lowest
privilege mode. All modern microprocessors have four privilege level
/rings,/ numbered from 0 (highest) to 3 (lowest). All modern
operating systems only use /rings/ 0 (kernelspace) and 3 (userspace).
Wrong. Pretty much only x86 has 4 privilege levels.
This is the architecture I was speaking of. The Intel IA32 and x86-64,
as well as the Itanium and Itanium 2.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
For example, the PowerPC processor only has 2 (superuser and user).
This is why NT, being written as a portable OS, only uses 2, rather
than 4.
Portable? Not by far as portable as Gnu/Linux, or even Gnu/Hurd for
that matter. Or FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. And yes, Gnu/Linux and
all other UNIX architectures only use two privilege levels, known as
"kernelspace/kernelland" and "userspace/userland/", respectively ring 0
and ring 3.

Windows was by far not innovative in this, as UNIX already had this
technology when Microsoft was still selling MS-DOS as its "current"
operating system. MS-DOS was a completely kernelspace-driven
environment because of its very nature and the CPU it was developed
for.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The NT-based versions of Windows are also multi-threading,
but Windows is actually an end-user-oriented platform and so its
server, security and multi-user functionalities are not part of its
design. They are added on as additional layers on top of the base
design, contrary to what is the case in UNIX operating systems.
Bullshit again. NT was designed from the beginning to be a server and
a workstation.
Yes, by designing it as a workstation and adding server-style layers. I
have already pointed out above that the Windows kernel does not meet
the requirements of a true servergrade operating system.

Just because the server versions and the workstation versions of Windows
were released to the market at (approximately) the same time doesn't
mean that Windows is servergrade. Again, see higher up.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
"Server security" is non-sense. There's no such thing.
Oh really? I'm sure lots of kernel developers will like hearing that.
Particularly the ones developing minicomputer and mainframe
architectures, such as IBM, SGI or Sun Microsystems.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
A server is only as secure as the applications that run on it.
This is the Microsoft security model, yes. A hogwash excuse for the
fact that Windows cannot live up to the servergrade standards in other,
more seriously developed operating systems.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There is no special "server security" in Linux,
The Linux kernel has security built-in and its design as a UNIX-style
kernel *makes* it a servergrade kernel.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
though certain attempts have been made at that such as with SELinux,
with varying degrees of success.
SELinux is more of a process with some extra tools, which I might add,
include things that are standard in Windows (ACL's) but not in Linux.
ACL's are supported by the vanilla Linux kernel - i.e. the kernel as
supplied by the Kernel Development Team headed by Linus Torvalds and
Andrew Morton, with their repository at http://www.kernel.org - and
this for the following filesystems:
- ext3fs
- reiserfs versions 3.5, 3.6 and 4.0
- XFS

I have no details on IBM's JFS - which is also supported by the Linux
kernel - so I will refrain from claiming that it also supports ACL's.
Chances are fair that it does, though.

As for ACL's on Windows, they are *all* *but* standard, considering that
you have to make use of the NTFS filesystem to implement them. The
/vfat/ filesystem does _not_ support ACL's.

As for SELinux, there is a lot more to it than using ACL's. It is
however more of a programming exercise than a production-intended
security implementation. Other security models also exist, which adopt
some of the technology from SELinux but add in other tightening as
well.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
So what about the numbers? Does Microsoft have the largest share in
the desktop market? Yes, it does. Unmistakably! Do they earn that?
Considering the poor design and quality of their products,
considering their unfair alliances and monopolist techniques, the
answer is "No, they do not."
Regardless of any of that, true or not, Microsoft earned its position
by BEING THERE when people needed it. Linux took almost a decade to
become a usable desktop system, and is still no there in terms of
desktop parity.
Hogwash! It's totally erroneous to compare "the desktop" market with
"the multimedia PC" market. The desktop market includes businesses and
therefore IT requirements for both office-style appliances as for
heavy-duty professional workstation needs.

As for "being there"... *You* may have insight in the Microsoft code
and design aspects, but regular Windows user won't even have to dream
about contacting any of the developers directly for assistance or
support.

Us FOSS users _do_ have that luxury, and I have already experienced this
myself, although my problem was solely related to the copyrights on
graph work. My co-workers and myself have even already had multiple
contacts with said developers and have even had them include our
organization in their default listing of supported networks.

Everything went very smoothly, friendly and politely.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Simply put, Linux was not CAPABLE of having the market share that
Windows did until very recently, and by then the maket share was
already gone.
Not that it can't be earned back, but it's much more difficult after
the fact.
This is covered by various references in my original post, but without
highlighting the economic factors.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Unix also spent more time in the 80's fighting each other, and
ignoring Windows, to Unix's detriment. It left a BAD taste in many
peopls mouths, and it took more than a decade for peoples opinions to
start to turn around.
Windows also capitalized on that.
I suppose this is true. One of the worst players in that ballgame was
SCO, by the way.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Will they keep their grip on this market? We don't know, and we
don't really care. All we care about is that we can hold on to our
freedom to choose another operating system than that which Microsoft
and its grunts dictate.
If you don't care, then what's this diatribe about then?
I was commenting on very specific references made by the Flatfish
character when he/she was assuming the Lisa Cottman identity.

The technical differences between Windows and UNIX-style operating
systems was merely explanatory, so as to point out that comparing the
two architectures - as newbies tend to do - is actually moot.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
But how about the server market? Is it really true that Microsoft
dominates that one too? No, not by a long shot! Most server systems
connected to the Internet are running proprietary UNIX, Gnu/Linux or
one of the Open Source BSD's, i.e. FreeBSD - which is also used as
the basis for Apple's OS X - NetBSD or OpenBSD.
Apart from the fact that you have no real data to support that claim,
I did have such data, but I have to admit that it's not recent. Things
may (and probably will) have changed a bit in the meantime, but not to
a degree that it would be radically different.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
and it would be difficult to prove, we can see that in many markets
Microsoft dominates, and Internet servers are only a small percentage
of total servers. For example, the last proveable survey I saw from
netcraft on physical server OS counts, Windows accounts for more than
50% of the physical web servers on the internet (not to be confused
with hosts, which are just ip addresses, of which a single server can
h ave many).
Hmmm... You could be right, but I reserve the right to doubt that 50%
number, especially for the timespan between 2000-2001 and present day.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft does own a large percentage of the server market, but not
even half of it. Another, smaller section of the server market still
relies on Novell's Netware, possibly uses some older VMS system or
may be using the server version of Apple's OS X. These numbers are
negligible, though.
Linux/Unix combined only have 28.3% of the server market. So where
are you getting these numbers. Right, you make them up.
No, I got them from earlier surveys, of which I did say higher up that
they are not recent. They date back to 2002 and 2003, with the first
half of 2004.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=P5013_0_6_0_C
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-23 04:39:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
"It is a given fact"? By what measure? The vast majority of Open
Source software is total crap, much of it being half finished, or
"good enough" for whatever itch they needed scratched. Of that
software, there is a small percentage that is popular enough to get
regular maintenance and enhancement by enough people to make a
difference.
I wouldn't expect you to agree with me. That is after all why you are a
Windows/Microsoft supporter while I am not.
If it's a given fact, you can provide some credible reference to it. If
not, it's not a given fact.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
The knife cuts both ways. There is no measure of skill required to
write open source software (some might argue the same for closed
source, but someone has hire the developers, and they usually have to
meet certain criteria).
This is true, and I forgot to point that out, but I did state that most
of the developers - and we *are* talking about the serious ones, those
who are involved in the development of the base Gnu operating system,
the Linux kernel, the Mach-plus-Hurd kernel and any serious
distribution.
Oh, so now you're qualifying your subset of software that you are
considering. I wouldn't lump the distro providers in that in general.
While there is some great software written by certain distro providers,
others have some real crap. YaST, for instance, is a huge monstrosity,
poorly designed, lacks any kind of usability testing, and doesn't even do a
very good job at what it does. emerge, however, is good, as is apt. RPM?
another monstrous piece of crap.
Post by Aragorn
I am not referring to someone who doesn't have a clue about programming
but decides to throw some code together and publish it. This does not
even apply to FOSS only, but also to the countless Windows-based
shareware and freeware tools in existence.
Indeed. The difference is that you don't see Microsoft shipping every tom
dick and harry's piece of shit shareware with their OS. The same is not
true of many Linux distro's.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
And, while many open source developers are skilled, many
more are not, and create unmaintainable, bug ridden pieces of crap.
Just because it's open source doesn't mean it's of higher quality.
The availability and modifiability of the source code guarantees that
the code is scrutinized by a lot more skilled contributors than is the
case with the code written under proprietary and closed licenses.
Bullshit. There is no such guarantee, unless you're talking about the
Linux kernel or Apache. And, even if they do, there's no guarantee that
the people that scrutinize it have pure intentions.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft programmers have already confirmed "off the record" that
Windows typically ships with some 60'000 bugs, of which some 20'000
are _*fatal*_ to the system's stability and/or integrity. And _this_
is what _you_ as a user pay big dough for, even if it's
You just pulled this figure out of your ass. You made it up.
No I did not. I got my information from reading about it in an unbiased
medium.
No, you didn't. You made it up. Especially the "typically ships" and and
the "confirmed" part. The 20,000 part are fatal is complete fabrication.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Completely. The only thing that comes close is the much vaulted
"65,000" bugs that Win2k shipped with, the vast majority of which were
probably not even bugs (but rather feature requests, user error
reprots, etc..).
Oh, so you are saying I'm making it up and then you are referring to a
historic fact with an even higher amount of bugs than I mentioned in my
original post? I'd say someone is contradicting himself here, and it
isn't me.
There's a difference between one version of Windows having 65,000 entries
in a bug database, which includes everything from feature requests to
people who misunderstand the nature of the program, and saying that this is
typical of all versions of Windows.
Post by Aragorn
But of course, nobody would expect you to admit that those bugs could
indeed have been fatal or serious. At least, I didn't say that all of
them were.
"could have been" and "of which some 20'000 are _*fatal*_ " are two
entirely different things. Certainly, 20,000 of them *COULD* have been,
but there is no confirmation either on or off the record that this is the
case, that rumor doesn't even exist.
Post by Aragorn
I quoted the 20'000 as being fatal, which is 1/3 of the 60'000 I
mentioned, of which _you_ first say that I made it up and then that the
number is actually 65'000. That's like saying "I have never done such
a thing in my life, and either way, I'll never do that again".
No. You made th enumber up.
Post by Aragorn
I think you've just lost a great deal of your credibility, Erik.
You haven't provided one shred of anything to back up your statements, just
like Rex.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Your 20,000 number is completely bogus and has no basis in fact.
That number came from the same source and even the very same sentence as
the 60'000 number.
No, it didn't. You made it up. It should be quite easy to prove this.

Here, I'll even give you the article about it.

http://old.macmilitia.com/davidnorton/windowsbugs.shtml

Now, please show me where it says anything about 20,000 FATAL errors. The
closest it comes to saying anything like that is that 28,000 are "real"
problems, with the other 40,000 or so being developer notes, user error,
feature requests, etc.. In other words, 2/3 of the "bugs" aren't even
bugs, while the remaining 1/3 are anything from cosmetic flaws to larger
problems, but certainly not any kind of classifciation of "fatal".

The fact is, no report either on or off the record (and by the way, this
number comes from an official MS Memo, not "off the record" by develoeprs)
states how many of those were fatal, if any.

So please, stop making this shit up.

Let's recap, shall we? First, you claim that an official memo from MS is
"developers confirm (off the record)". Then you claim that this
confirmation is "Windows typically ships with", rather than it being
specific to Windows 2000. Then, you claim that "20,000 of which are
_FATAL_" which is a complete fabrication.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
You seem to have a very skewed idea of what a "server" is. All a
"server" is is a collection of functions that service remote client
computers. As such, *ALL* servers for *ALL* os's are just "add-ons",
no matter how extensive they may be.
Exactly, or at least, for as far as Windows servers are concerned.
However, Windows is *not* a native multi-user system - it only allows
multi-user-style connections through a services set applied on top of
the kernel - while the Linux and UNIX kernels *are.*
You are completely off base. Windows is *INHERANTLY* a multiuser OS. IT
was designed that way from the beginning, and even the first version of NT
always ran programs concurrent programs under at least 3 different accounts
simultaneously.

"multi-user-style connections"? What the hell is that? There's no such
thing. A connection has nothing to do with being multi user. What matters
is what happens AFTER the connection is made. For example, when you
connect to an SSH server on Unix, that connection is opened by a service
running as root. That SERVICE then changes the ownership of the spawned
process to whatever user it autheticates you as. This is entirely up the
service to handle, and has nothing to do with the connection.

Likewise, you have no understanding of how the NT OS is designed if you
make this claim. Multiple users are not run as a service. That's
ridiculous. The OS itself is multiuser at its core and always has been.
Post by Aragorn
Additionally, Windows does *not* feature kernel-built-in security or
else it would never be possible to install the system itself on - and
boot it from - an insecure filesystem with no support whatsoever for
file ownerships. Instead, it needs a pluggable filesystem to implement
a basic form of security.
Wrong.

Try reading about the NT kernel architecture. Try this:

http://www.windowsitpro.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=30&ArticleID=3025

Oh, and for the record, the filesystem has *NOTHING* to do with the OS
security model. Nothing to do with it. You mentioend this before about
Linux, claiming it required this to run, but that's patently false. There
are distro's of Linux that run on FAT, and there are distro's that run on
ACL based (not UGO) filesystems as well.

You are simply wrong.
Post by Aragorn
Considering both of the above, I do not consider Windows to natively
*be* a servergrade operating system, and historically, it already
wasn't one to boot.
Considering you are wrong both about Linux *AND* Windows, I don't think
your opinions on it hold much weight.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Windows has poor memory management - particularly where it concerns
the paging of memory to the hard disk - and has no security built-in
unless the NTFS filesystem is used. This filesystem - as well as the
/vfat/ filesystem, otherwise known to Windows users as "FAT32" -
severely fragments over a very short period of time, inducing severe
stability and performance penalties.
Bullshit. There are no "stability" issues with fragmentation on NTFS.
There were some problems on FAT, but FAT was not a very stable file
system. NTFS is the default file system for Windows, and if you choose
to use it, such security is fully enforced.
It may be the filesystem that is chosen for installation on a partition
by default, but it does not make it the default filesystem for Windows.
Windows can run just as well or as poorly from a /vfat/ partition.
As can Linux.
Post by Aragorn
As for the stability issues, I have known NT to go flat out on its face
over a too fragmented filesystem, because the I/O scheduling couldn't
keep up with the process scheduling anymore.
All you're doing is spouting techno-babble. That's simply not true. Even
if it were true, how exactly would you, the person that doesn't even
understand the basic workings of the OS, know that? You couldn't, so again
you're making it up.
Post by Aragorn
Well, that's just one of the scenarios in which Windows goes flat out on
its face.
No, it's one of the things you made up.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Security is also more than just your filesystem.
Exactly. And without NTFS, Windows has none.
Wrong. Every kernel object has security descriptors on it. You seem stuck
on this filesystem thing, when it's so insignificant as to be almost
meaningless.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
NT has a fine grained security model throughtout it's core, including
memory allocations, kernel objects, kernel file objects (whether the
filesystem supports security or not), etc..
These things are quite futile without NTFS and are no more than an
improved version of the already existing security measures in OS/2.
These security measures are also far more related to stability than to
actual security.
OS/2 *HAD NO SECURITY MEASURES* None. It was completely without security,
either on the filesystem or in the kernel, or anywhere else. It was a
completely single user OS.

And once again, the file system has *NOTHING* to do with the kernel
security model.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Also, Windows memory management is just fine. It's *DIFFERENT* than
what Linux or Unix has, but that doesn't make it poor. It just makes
it designed with different trade-offs.
The fact that the Windows kernel maps out memory to a pagefile that sits
in the regular filesystem just like any other file - with the sole
exception that it's been given the "S" filesystem attribute - causes
the swapfile itself - and thus its contents - to be loaded into memory
again upon feeding the cache.
You're still spouting techno-babble. Those are english words, but the
context doesn't make any sense.

First, Linux can also use pagefiles. Second, the pagefile is eclusively
locked while it's in use. You can't read it or write to it while the OS is
using it. Third, it's owned by the SYSTEM user, and its file attributes
are set to SYSTEM only, and you can't change it. Go ahead, right click on
it and look for a security tab, it won't show up. go ahead and use the
command line ACL utility to change it, you can't.

What the hell is "to be loaded into memory again upon feeding the cache"
supposed to mean?
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Linux/Unix memory management has it's own unique set of problems, for
instance the tendancy of the system to kill random processes when swap
fills up, rather than simply failing allocations and letting the apps
deal with it.
To my knowledge, the Linux kernel will not kill random processes but
will simply avoid new processes from being created. It will also
preserve a certain amount of free physical RAM so that the superuser
can log in and do the killing of processes himself.
Your knowledge is not very adequate then:

http://lwn.net/Articles/104179/
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Windows also needlessly uses Remote Procedure Calls - also known as
"RPC" - for internal inter-process communication, which greatly
renders the system vulnerable to cracking attacks from the outside.
Thus arises the absolute *_need_* for Windows users to install a
firewalling application or invest in a hardware firewall.
Bullshit agian. Windows use LRPC or Local Remote Procedure Calls, not
RPC. LRPC is akin to unix domain sockets, and are implemented with
shared memory, rather than sockets. LRPC has the same problems and
difficulties as unix domain sockets, but security is not one of them.
Windows *DOES* use RPC for client/server functionality, but then so
does Unix.
To my knowledge, Windows does use RPC with sockets in some areas of its
IPC, where this could be avoided and replaced by the model you are
describing.
Once again, you knowledge is lacking.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The kernel is the central part of an operating system. It
manages the process scheduling, the memory and the I/O. Monolithic
kernels also manage the hardware. Microkernels leave this aspect to
userspace drivers, i.e. drivers that run in the CPU's lowest
privilege mode. All modern microprocessors have four privilege level
/rings,/ numbered from 0 (highest) to 3 (lowest). All modern
operating systems only use /rings/ 0 (kernelspace) and 3 (userspace).
Wrong. Pretty much only x86 has 4 privilege levels.
This is the architecture I was speaking of. The Intel IA32 and x86-64,
as well as the Itanium and Itanium 2.
Oh, so the x86 and Itanium count as "All modern microprocessors" eh?

Funny, that.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
For example, the PowerPC processor only has 2 (superuser and user).
This is why NT, being written as a portable OS, only uses 2, rather
than 4.
Portable? Not by far as portable as Gnu/Linux, or even Gnu/Hurd for
that matter. Or FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD. And yes, Gnu/Linux and
all other UNIX architectures only use two privilege levels, known as
"kernelspace/kernelland" and "userspace/userland/", respectively ring 0
and ring 3.
Windows was by far not innovative in this, as UNIX already had this
technology when Microsoft was still selling MS-DOS as its "current"
operating system. MS-DOS was a completely kernelspace-driven
environment because of its very nature and the CPU it was developed
for.
Who said anything about innovative? I simply corrected your
misinformation. Most "modern microprocessors" do *NOT* use 4 rings. They
only have 2, and that's why portable OS's only use 2 rings, and was one of
the reasons OS/2 had such a hard time being ported to PPC (OS/2 used ring 2
for drivers).
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
_Note:_ The NT-based versions of Windows are also multi-threading,
but Windows is actually an end-user-oriented platform and so its
server, security and multi-user functionalities are not part of its
design. They are added on as additional layers on top of the base
design, contrary to what is the case in UNIX operating systems.
Bullshit again. NT was designed from the beginning to be a server and
a workstation.
Yes, by designing it as a workstation and adding server-style layers. I
have already pointed out above that the Windows kernel does not meet
the requirements of a true servergrade operating system.
No, you invented a situation that doesn't exist. NT has always been
multiuser, though up until NT4-TS edition you couldn't log in to the GUI
remotely as a different user, you could log in via telnet, ftp, SMB, and
any number of other services as various users, though.

This was strictly a limitation in the GUI that it was local only (though it
had been designed to be remoted, it just wasn't implemented until NT4-TS).
Post by Aragorn
Just because the server versions and the workstation versions of Windows
were released to the market at (approximately) the same time doesn't
mean that Windows is servergrade. Again, see higher up.
Wrong, and i've explained why.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
"Server security" is non-sense. There's no such thing.
Oh really? I'm sure lots of kernel developers will like hearing that.
Particularly the ones developing minicomputer and mainframe
architectures, such as IBM, SGI or Sun Microsystems.
The part you fail to understand is that it's not "server security".
Security is something inherant in the OS itself, not anything to do with it
being a server or not.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
A server is only as secure as the applications that run on it.
This is the Microsoft security model, yes. A hogwash excuse for the
fact that Windows cannot live up to the servergrade standards in other,
more seriously developed operating systems.
No, it's true of all operating systems.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
There is no special "server security" in Linux,
The Linux kernel has security built-in and its design as a UNIX-style
kernel *makes* it a servergrade kernel.
No, it doesn't, at least not related to anything server oriented. Being a
server is all about the services (daemons), and your OS (including Linux)
is only as secure as those services are. Why do you think wu-ftpd has a
ridiculous security record? Same with Sendmail?
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
though certain attempts have been made at that such as with SELinux,
with varying degrees of success.
SELinux is more of a process with some extra tools, which I might add,
include things that are standard in Windows (ACL's) but not in Linux.
ACL's are supported by the vanilla Linux kernel - i.e. the kernel as
supplied by the Kernel Development Team headed by Linus Torvalds and
Andrew Morton, with their repository at http://www.kernel.org - and
- ext3fs
- reiserfs versions 3.5, 3.6 and 4.0
- XFS
NO, it doesn't. ACL's are not included in the standard Linux kernel.
There is no ACL option in any kernel config menu entry. ACL's are not JUST
for the file system.
Post by Aragorn
As for ACL's on Windows, they are *all* *but* standard, considering that
you have to make use of the NTFS filesystem to implement them. The
/vfat/ filesystem does _not_ support ACL's.
Forget the filesystem. ACL's are still used even if you're not using NTFS,
it's just that the files don't have them. ACL's are still applied
internally to all kernel objects.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
So what about the numbers? Does Microsoft have the largest share in
the desktop market? Yes, it does. Unmistakably! Do they earn that?
Considering the poor design and quality of their products,
considering their unfair alliances and monopolist techniques, the
answer is "No, they do not."
Regardless of any of that, true or not, Microsoft earned its position
by BEING THERE when people needed it. Linux took almost a decade to
become a usable desktop system, and is still no there in terms of
desktop parity.
Hogwash! It's totally erroneous to compare "the desktop" market with
"the multimedia PC" market. The desktop market includes businesses and
therefore IT requirements for both office-style appliances as for
heavy-duty professional workstation needs.
As for "being there"... *You* may have insight in the Microsoft code
and design aspects, but regular Windows user won't even have to dream
about contacting any of the developers directly for assistance or
support.
Us FOSS users _do_ have that luxury, and I have already experienced this
myself, although my problem was solely related to the copyrights on
graph work. My co-workers and myself have even already had multiple
contacts with said developers and have even had them include our
organization in their default listing of supported networks.
Everything went very smoothly, friendly and politely.
You are sadly mistaken if you think a secretary in a doctors office is
going to be sneding emails to device driver developers to get their printer
to work. Up until the last few years, that sort of thing was a regular
occurance in Linux.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Unix also spent more time in the 80's fighting each other, and
ignoring Windows, to Unix's detriment. It left a BAD taste in many
peopls mouths, and it took more than a decade for peoples opinions to
start to turn around.
Windows also capitalized on that.
I suppose this is true. One of the worst players in that ballgame was
SCO, by the way.
Once again, you show your total lack of knowledge. SCO of today is a
totally different company than SCO of the 80's SCO of the 80's was called
"The Santa Cruz Operation". SCO of today is just the renamed Caldera,
after they bought the Unix rights from the old SCO. SCO then change their
name to Tarantella, and Caldera changed it's name to SCO.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
But how about the server market? Is it really true that Microsoft
dominates that one too? No, not by a long shot! Most server systems
connected to the Internet are running proprietary UNIX, Gnu/Linux or
one of the Open Source BSD's, i.e. FreeBSD - which is also used as
the basis for Apple's OS X - NetBSD or OpenBSD.
Apart from the fact that you have no real data to support that claim,
I did have such data, but I have to admit that it's not recent. Things
may (and probably will) have changed a bit in the meantime, but not to
a degree that it would be radically different.
How about presenting your old data then? With references.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
and it would be difficult to prove, we can see that in many markets
Microsoft dominates, and Internet servers are only a small percentage
of total servers. For example, the last proveable survey I saw from
netcraft on physical server OS counts, Windows accounts for more than
50% of the physical web servers on the internet (not to be confused
with hosts, which are just ip addresses, of which a single server can
h ave many).
Hmmm... You could be right, but I reserve the right to doubt that 50%
number, especially for the timespan between 2000-2001 and present day.
Read for yourself:

http://survey.netcraft.com/index-200109.html

Specifically, look at the section called "Counting computers running on the
web"
Post by Aragorn
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
Post by Aragorn
Microsoft does own a large percentage of the server market, but not
even half of it. Another, smaller section of the server market still
relies on Novell's Netware, possibly uses some older VMS system or
may be using the server version of Apple's OS X. These numbers are
negligible, though.
Linux/Unix combined only have 28.3% of the server market. So where
are you getting these numbers. Right, you make them up.
No, I got them from earlier surveys, of which I did say higher up that
they are not recent. They date back to 2002 and 2003, with the first
half of 2004.
Post by Erik Funkenbusch
http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=P5013_0_6_0_C
Really? in 2001 Windows server was at 49%

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-959049.html

In 2002 they had 55.1%

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112840,00.asp

Where are these numbers of yours coming from?
Jericho Swarm
2005-09-23 16:14:26 UTC
Permalink
<snipped>

Erik,

Why do you waste your time posting here?
Nobody cares what you have to say.
You make such an effort to prove someone wrong or correct people, yet
you have no credibility. Nobody respects you, yet you believe you've
somehow earned people's respect.
You are not an authority on anything and never post anything useful.
You are an abject failure of the worst order because you believe you
matter.
You do not.
Get over yourself and face reality, if you can be so brave.
Erik Funkenbusch
2005-09-23 18:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jericho Swarm
<snipped>
Erik,
Why do you waste your time posting here?
Nobody cares what you have to say.
You make such an effort to prove someone wrong or correct people, yet
you have no credibility. Nobody respects you, yet you believe you've
somehow earned people's respect.
You are not an authority on anything and never post anything useful.
You are an abject failure of the worst order because you believe you
matter.
You do not.
Get over yourself and face reality, if you can be so brave.
Lol, that's priceless.

You have no idea what I believe, so please stop the lecture. Fact is, I've
already said that *NOTHING* in this newsgroup matters. That includes me.
This newsgroup is a complete waste of time for anyone, nor does it "provide
anything useful".

You're taking yourself way too seriously if you think otherwise.
Munch
2005-09-22 22:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Quite a thorough post on the points you did address although you seem to
have avoided other points and arguments making the post somewhat biased of
course coming from a Linux user what can we expect. Just as you can expect
my posts to be biased.

I actually did not read everything word for word as allot of it is how
operating systems work and I was getting bored reading stuff I already
know. Still informative for those that don't know.

The point I felt you did not address comes down to: Despite all you have
said Windows is so much more usable on the desktop despite how flawed it
may be. At the end of the day it is not tech users that use the OS but
grandpa and grandma and your 4 year old brother who just wants to launch a
game.

No one really wants to care about how secure it is or whether it uses
preemptive multitasking or not. People want to do the banking, accounting,
play games, listen to music watch videos email and browse the web and
whatever else they do. They hate to have to wonder why they can't just
switch the computer on and do all this without worrying about how they will
achieve it. That is what makes a good desktop OS. Not how few viruses, bugs
or security problems plague the system. They just could not care less if
the OS is using their hardware to it's full potential or not. Say I am
trying to write a email. If I can do that who cares how the memory was
allocated or the CPU scheduled. Most people achieve these task regardless
of the problems that plague windows, and they don't bother to think about
the above. That is what they pay tech's for. To fix what goes wrong. They
don't want to worry about what hardware will work on their system or
whether it is fully supported. They don't want to worry about how to
install it. Even for this reason windows xp 64 has not taken off, I mean
who wants something is most of you hardware might not work or be supported.

I am a tech user and I have tried Linux a number of times and how often do
I run into the situation of o boy my grandmother will never be able to do
this. From downloading a program to installing it. To receiving a program
in email. People want to double click things and be done with it. They
don't care about the clutter left behind in the registry and file system
when uninstalling a application. If all shortcuts are gone according to
them the program is gone. Of course many do expect it to free up disk
space.

Windows is not perfect but I think it gets the job done better than Linux
does and the job is to be done is not to see how to secure the machine,
schedule the resources or have a 1000 confusing options of doing the same
thing such as system configuration, including changing the wallpaper. The
job to be done is not to see how many movies I can run in the background
and how many mp3's I can play at the same time. Who does these things
anyway? The job to be done should not involve wrestling with spreadsheets
or word processor documents that will not open or display correctly. Or
having to worry about the people you send this document. Will they be able
to read it? If so will they be able to edit it. And send back the changes
Can we work in harmony together. People don't want to ask these questions.
Come to think of it that just complicates things.

I don't want to ask myself will this DVD play on my computer that I decide
to buy or rent. Will this game work? Of course it is hard enough with games
that they need to know some basic hardware requirements with games. Why
should they worry about emulators and worry if it will even run at full
speed. I want to be able to buy legal music online and play them without
worrying about how to get them or how to play them. I don't want to be
limited either by the services offered whether ITunes, YMU, Rhapsody,
Napster or other. I want to use them all should I desire or be able to
switch at any time.

People don't want to be limited to special repositories of programs which
often are not the latest versions. They see a product on a website and want
to download it, and install it. Not go to some repository or download the
source code and build it themselves. Regular people don't care about open
source, they could care less if the source code it freely available. They
can't read it anyway or change it unless they learn these skills. But they
are skills which they don't care for. People do sometimes care about cost
however they will gladly pay for something which in their mind works or
will make life easier.

They don't care if they are making a certain corporation richer. Thy don't
care too much about market share other than that programs with greater
market share are more likely to work everywhere. They company with the
greatest market share does not automatically become the enemy.

And people wonder why people use IE. People see the icon on their desktop
and use it. And guess what it works. They browse they web and it works.
Despite the fact that they are gathering spyware along the way. The same
applies to WMP. Why use anything else when what I got works. In fact I
would not be surprised if people buying the media reduced version of
windows will feel frustrated or even cheated when they discover they cannot
play music or movies properly.

At work people want to use industry standard programs like Photoshop and
would like to use the same programs at home why learn something else.
Programmers like to use industry standard IDE's. People don't want to use
VI(I know there are Notepad clones but that is not the point), VI might
have 1000 times the power of Notepad however it just does not cut it for
99% of users. In there minds it just does not work.

I can go on.
But there are reasons people don't use Linux no matter how much better it
was build from the ground up which might address the problem that plague
windows, but does it address what windows already addresses, no. It fails
to create a useful system on the desktop for the average joe.

Excuse the mistakes, no time to read this through.
George Ellison
2005-09-22 22:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Munch
Quite a thorough post on the points you did address although you seem to
have avoided other points and arguments making the post somewhat biased of
course coming from a Linux user what can we expect. Just as you can expect
my posts to be biased.
I actually did not read everything word for word as allot of it is how
operating systems work and I was getting bored reading stuff I already
know. Still informative for those that don't know.
The point I felt you did not address comes down to: Despite all you have
said Windows is so much more usable on the desktop despite how flawed it
may be. At the end of the day it is not tech users that use the OS but
grandpa and grandma and your 4 year old brother who just wants to launch a
game.
No one really wants to care about how secure it is or whether it uses
preemptive multitasking or not. People want to do the banking, accounting,
play games, listen to music watch videos email and browse the web and
whatever else they do. They hate to have to wonder why they can't just
switch the computer on and do all this without worrying about how they will
achieve it. That is what makes a good desktop OS. Not how few viruses, bugs
or security problems plague the system. They just could not care less if
the OS is using their hardware to it's full potential or not. Say I am
trying to write a email. If I can do that who cares how the memory was
allocated or the CPU scheduled. Most people achieve these task regardless
of the problems that plague windows, and they don't bother to think about
the above. That is what they pay tech's for. To fix what goes wrong. They
don't want to worry about what hardware will work on their system or
whether it is fully supported. They don't want to worry about how to
install it. Even for this reason windows xp 64 has not taken off, I mean
who wants something is most of you hardware might not work or be supported.
I am a tech user and I have tried Linux a number of times and how often do
I run into the situation of o boy my grandmother will never be able to do
this. From downloading a program to installing it. To receiving a program
in email. People want to double click things and be done with it. They
don't care about the clutter left behind in the registry and file system
when uninstalling a application. If all shortcuts are gone according to
them the program is gone. Of course many do expect it to free up disk
space.
Windows is not perfect but I think it gets the job done better than Linux
does and the job is to be done is not to see how to secure the machine,
schedule the resources or have a 1000 confusing options of doing the same
thing such as system configuration, including changing the wallpaper. The
job to be done is not to see how many movies I can run in the background
and how many mp3's I can play at the same time. Who does these things
anyway? The job to be done should not involve wrestling with spreadsheets
or word processor documents that will not open or display correctly. Or
having to worry about the people you send this document. Will they be able
to read it? If so will they be able to edit it. And send back the changes
Can we work in harmony together. People don't want to ask these questions.
Come to think of it that just complicates things.
I don't want to ask myself will this DVD play on my computer that I decide
to buy or rent. Will this game work? Of course it is hard enough with games
that they need to know some basic hardware requirements with games. Why
should they worry about emulators and worry if it will even run at full
speed. I want to be able to buy legal music online and play them without
worrying about how to get them or how to play them. I don't want to be
limited either by the services offered whether ITunes, YMU, Rhapsody,
Napster or other. I want to use them all should I desire or be able to
switch at any time.
People don't want to be limited to special repositories of programs which
often are not the latest versions. They see a product on a website and want
to download it, and install it. Not go to some repository or download the
source code and build it themselves. Regular people don't care about open
source, they could care less if the source code it freely available. They
can't read it anyway or change it unless they learn these skills. But they
are skills which they don't care for. People do sometimes care about cost
however they will gladly pay for something which in their mind works or
will make life easier.
They don't care if they are making a certain corporation richer. Thy don't
care too much about market share other than that programs with greater
market share are more likely to work everywhere. They company with the
greatest market share does not automatically become the enemy.
And people wonder why people use IE. People see the icon on their desktop
and use it. And guess what it works. They browse they web and it works.
Despite the fact that they are gathering spyware along the way. The same
applies to WMP. Why use anything else when what I got works. In fact I
would not be surprised if people buying the media reduced version of
windows will feel frustrated or even cheated when they discover they cannot
play music or movies properly.
At work people want to use industry standard programs like Photoshop and
would like to use the same programs at home why learn something else.
Programmers like to use industry standard IDE's. People don't want to use
VI(I know there are Notepad clones but that is not the point), VI might
have 1000 times the power of Notepad however it just does not cut it for
99% of users. In there minds it just does not work.
I can go on.
But there are reasons people don't use Linux no matter how much better it
was build from the ground up which might address the problem that plague
windows, but does it address what windows already addresses, no. It fails
to create a useful system on the desktop for the average joe.
Excuse the mistakes, no time to read this through.
There are some serious issues confronting Linux on the desktop. Foremost
among them is the fact that most 'users' think using a computer should be
as easy as using a fucking toaster oven.

It's not. The only reason Windows (and OSX to a lesser extent) is 'easy
to use' is because there is a massive loss of functionality. Like the GUI?
You better, it's all you're going to get. Like how the OS manages windows?
Same thing. Desktop getting crowded? It's the only one there, so get
used to it.

Linux has a lot more to offer for anyone who wishes to use it, but they
are not able to rub their hands on the lamp of the Linux genie and walk
away with a super-powerful system. They have to meet it halfway.

I've seen plenty of posts of 'horror stories,' and most of them seem to
break down like this: I tried to install it, it didn't do what I wanted it
to do right off the bat, I said 'fuck it' and deleted it. No real effort
to MAKE anything work, just expecting it to run right there.

For all that I love this system (and I've only been using it for a short
time), I have no desire to convert the stupids kicking and screaming.
Want to use Windows? It's right there. Lay down your money and play your
part, as the song says.
ws
2005-09-23 02:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Ellison
There are some serious issues confronting Linux on the desktop.
Foremost among them is the fact that most 'users' think using a
computer should be as easy as using a fucking toaster oven.
Ever seen people put "WARNING: MICROWAVE USE ONLY" cookware into their
toaster ovens and vice versa? These same people who would sue the
toaster oven manufacturers in an instant, yet are oblivious to the fact
that computers will act-up when fed improperly as well. (l)users exist,
no matter what context you put them into.
Post by George Ellison
It's not. The only reason Windows (and OSX to a lesser extent) is
'easy to use' is because there is a massive loss of functionality.
Like the GUI? You better, it's all you're going to get. Like how the
OS manages windows? Same thing. Desktop getting crowded? It's the
only one there, so get used to it.
Yes. The reality is that I have to use linux to clean up after winwoes.
You can still go into the CLI to clean up after OSX, but thankfully, it
doesn't do that very much.
Post by George Ellison
Linux has a lot more to offer for anyone who wishes to use it, but
they are not able to rub their hands on the lamp of the Linux genie
and walk away with a super-powerful system. They have to meet it
halfway.
There are companies and distros that attempt to be that middleman, and
many have done that successfully. People need to see that as a value
add, and not focus on the "free beer" aspect.
Post by George Ellison
I've seen plenty of posts of 'horror stories,' and most of them seem
to break down like this: I tried to install it, it didn't do what I
wanted it to do right off the bat, I said 'fuck it' and deleted it.
No real effort to MAKE anything work, just expecting it to run right
there.
Yet these are the same people that call for help when their
"installed-runs-but-breaks-mysteriously-afterwards" software acts up.
Post by George Ellison
For all that I love this system (and I've only been using it for a
short time), I have no desire to convert the stupids kicking and
screaming. Want to use Windows? It's right there. Lay down your money
and play your part, as the song says.
Quite.

Regards,
WS
--
change to leews to mail
linux user #61399
B Gruff
2005-09-23 00:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Munch
Excuse the mistakes, no time to read this through.
Nay, don't apologise.
That wasn't a bad posting at all.

I don't agree with all of it, but that's probably a very good summary of
"The average Joe's perspective from his Windows environment".

Certainly food for thought - thanks for your trouble and time.

Bill
Aragorn
2005-09-23 02:52:35 UTC
Permalink
On Friday 23 September 2005 00:20, Munch stood up and spoke the
following words to the masses in /comp.os.linux.advocacy...:/
Post by Munch
Quite a thorough post on the points you did address although you seem
to have avoided other points and arguments making the post somewhat
biased of course coming from a Linux user what can we expect. Just as
you can expect my posts to be biased.
Fair enough. Your post is also well-written and does not come across as
hostile, which I appreciate. ;-)
Post by Munch
I actually did not read everything word for word as allot of it is how
operating systems work and I was getting bored reading stuff I already
know. Still informative for those that don't know.
That was largely the intent of my post, yes. ;-)
Post by Munch
The point I felt you did not address comes down to: Despite all you
have said Windows is so much more usable on the desktop despite how
flawed it may be. At the end of the day it is not tech users that use
the OS but grandpa and grandma and your 4 year old brother who just
wants to launch a game.
I fully understand that, but now you are already making two mistakes.
Allow me to point them out to you...

(1) I have personally had to struggle heavily with Windows 98 SE on an
old Pentium 200 MMX PC that I'm preparing for a friend of mine as a
gift, as I had installed a Realtek 8139 10/100 PCI ethernet card in it,
in order to connect the machine to the Internet via my LAN for the
latest Windows updates, now that Windows 98 is still supported.

I had to struggle on two fronts, being...
a) getting Windows to recognize the card and install the driver. This
was extremely painstaking; and
b) the support for Win98-compatible freeware tools that I had installed
on that machine - e.g. WinZip et al. Neither of them worked!

Now I may not be an expert on Windows, but I do know enough about IT,
and if I can't pull that off, then how do you expect grandma and
grandpa to pull it off?

(2) There is more to "the desktop market" than "the home and office
user". There is such a thing as the professional workstation market,
which is still largely domineered by proprietary UNIX systems - not by
Windows, as there was no need for Windows in that area - and in which
Gnu/Linux is now highly appreciated as a far more cost-effective
solution than those proprietary UNIX systems.

The above is the kind of desktop on which aircraft, spacecraft, ships,
trains and automobiles are being designed, where bio-molecular
engineering takes place, where medical analysis is being conducted,
where seismological events are being analyzed and - as I got to see on
the news tonight - where the Mars robots were being controlled from.

Granted, NASA did deploy several Windows machines for the job as well,
namely for the rendering of the photos taken by the robots and for the
displaying and aligning of such photos on a large projection screen.

There's more to the desktop than the typical office or multimedia PC
that the end-user knows. This is probably even why you overlooked this
in the first place. It's a professional market, but it's lesser known
to the greater public.

<snip>
Post by Munch
I am a tech user and I have tried Linux a number of times and how
often do I run into the situation of o boy my grandmother will never
be able to do this. From downloading a program to installing it. To
receiving a program in email. People want to double click things and
be done with it. They don't care about the clutter left behind in the
registry and file system when uninstalling a application. If all
shortcuts are gone according to them the program is gone. Of course
many do expect it to free up disk space.
Yes, they don't care. But once they contract some virus, hijacker or
worm, _then_ all of a sudden they _do_ care. This says more about
people than about the software, in my humble opinion.
Post by Munch
Windows is not perfect but I think it gets the job done better than
Linux does and the job is to be done is not to see how to secure the
machine, schedule the resources or have a 1000 confusing options of
doing the same thing such as system configuration, including changing
the wallpaper. The job to be done is not to see how many movies I can
run in the background and how many mp3's I can play at the same time.
Who does these things anyway? The job to be done should not involve
wrestling with spreadsheets or word processor documents that will not
open or display correctly. Or having to worry about the people you
send this document. Will they be able to read it? If so will they be
able to edit it. And send back the changes Can we work in harmony
together. People don't want to ask these questions. Come to think of
it that just complicates things.
You have obviously never used Gnu/Linux, or at the very least not used
it in a long time. I'm currently still running an older Mandrake
release on this system - albeit with a custom 2.6 generation kernel,
but that's irrelevant to what I will be pointing out - and thus most of
the software in this distro is considered "old".

Yet, I have no difficulties opening, modifying and saving Microsoft
documents such as Word documents, Excell spreadsheets or Powerpoint
presentations, thanks to OpenOffice - which also exists for Windows, by
the way.

Likewise, I can play /.mp3's/ and view movie clips. The only things I
have difficulty with are the movie or sound clips in the newer
Microsoft-specific formats, but this is because of my already outdated
distribution. I can perfectly play older MS multimedia formats.

Another thing I have problems with - again due to the outdated nature of
my distro - are websites with Flash or Flash/Shockwave clips.
Post by Munch
I don't want to ask myself will this DVD play on my computer that I
decide to buy or rent.
Even my old Mandrake distribution can play DVD movies, although I never
watch DVD's on my computer. I have a home cinema system in my living
room for that purpose. That's what it was designed for.
Post by Munch
Will this game work? Of course it is hard enough with games that they
need to know some basic hardware requirements with games.
There are lots of Gnu/Linux equivalents of many popular games, and even
a number of Windows games can be played in Gnu/Linux via /Cedega/ or
/WineX./
Post by Munch
Why should they worry about emulators and worry if it will even run at
full speed. I want to be able to buy legal music online and play them
without worrying about how to get them or how to play them.
I do have a problem with that, I have to admit. It is however not a
computer problem, but simply the fact that I don't own a creditcard.
;-)
Post by Munch
I don't want to be limited either by the services offered whether
ITunes, YMU, Rhapsody, Napster or other. I want to use them all should
I desire or be able to switch at any time.
Peer to peer networking also exists in Gnu/Linux. Gnutella and Napster
also come in a Gnu/Linux version. From what I hear, ITunes should work
under /wine./ I don't know what Rhapsody is, other than that it
originates from the MacIntosh environment.
Post by Munch
People don't want to be limited to special repositories of programs
which often are not the latest versions. They see a product on a
website and want to download it, and install it. Not go to some
repository or download the source code and build it themselves.
Commercially vended distributions such as Mandriva - formerly known as
Mandrake - or SuSE, RedHat (and its freely downloadable but quite
reliable testbed Fedora Core) all offer binary packages. Builds from
source are rarely required, and usually only apply to things that have
nothing to do with the marketshare you are speaking of.
Post by Munch
Regular people don't care about open source, they could care less if
the source code it freely available. They can't read it anyway or
change it unless they learn these skills.
That is not the point of Open Source. ;-)
Post by Munch
But they are skills which they don't care for. People do sometimes
care about cost however they will gladly pay for something which in
their mind works or will make life easier.
They don't care if they are making a certain corporation richer. Thy
don't care too much about market share other than that programs with
greater market share are more likely to work everywhere. They company
with the greatest market share does not automatically become the
enemy.
You are now referring to things that I spoke of and that did not refer
to this market either. They were only there to refute some false
claims made by trolls. Well, all by the same troll, really.
Post by Munch
And people wonder why people use IE. People see the icon on their
desktop and use it. And guess what it works. They browse they web and
it works. Despite the fact that they are gathering spyware along the
way. The same applies to WMP. Why use anything else when what I got
works. In fact I would not be surprised if people buying the media
reduced version of windows will feel frustrated or even cheated when
they discover they cannot play music or movies properly.
Yes, I am fully aware of people wanting to be lazy and irresponsible
with their personal computers. But they are also the people to scream
the loudest whenever they have contracted a virus, whenever they are
receiving spam, whenever their own stupidity caused them to fall victim
to /phishing/ - something that doesn't even have anything to do with
the underlying operating system - or when their system starts crashing
or losing performance...

In other words, people need a shift in attitude. An additional factor
is the given that people who run fundamentally insecure installations
of any operating system - and this includes the newbies who do their
daily work in Gnu/Linux while logged in as the /root/ user - are not
only a threat to themselves, but also to every other computer connected
to the Internet.

You see, if _your_ box gets /owned/ by a virus or a cracker, then your
box becomes an extra weapon that the malware creator can use in attacks
against other computers on the Internet. Not only is this unethical -
and I frankly couldn't care less about people's objections for behaving
ethically - but if _your_ box was singled out from a list of many
others that participated in a Distributed Denial of Service Attack,
then guess at whose door they are going to come knocking?
Post by Munch
At work people want to use industry standard programs like Photoshop
and would like to use the same programs at home why learn something
else.
PhotoShop is not an industry standard, unless you are working on a
MacIntosh - their selection of preferred and designated tools is rather
limited - and everything you can do in PhotoShop can - to my knowledge
- also be done in The Gimp (which also exists for Windows, by the way).

As far as true "industry standards" are concerned, Microsoft has always
had a hard time accepting those. Consider the IE-only website coding,
or Microsoft's non-standard Java implementation, or its XML
implementation, although in the latter case, I will admit that
Microsoft were the first to establish a standard for XML. It was
however not accepted, in favor of the current implementation.
Post by Munch
Programmers like to use industry standard IDE's. People don't
want to use VI(I know there are Notepad clones but that is not the
point), VI might have 1000 times the power of Notepad however it just
does not cut it for 99% of users. In there minds it just does not
work.
The KDE that ships with commercial distributions contains lots of
editors, many of which are GUI editors and many of which offer the same
functionality as Notepad and even more, should you desire to use that.
Post by Munch
I can go on.
But there are reasons people don't use Linux no matter how much better
it was build from the ground up which might address the problem that
plague windows, but does it address what windows already addresses,
no. It fails to create a useful system on the desktop for the average
joe.
I know the very reasons why people don't use Gnu/Linux for things that
they normally use Windows for, and you do have a point. But so do I in
the replies I have given here.

In addition - and this was clearly laid out in my original post - we
don't actually care about people's objections to using Gnu/Linux, as a
larger market share is not what we are after. Sure, it would be nice,
but that is not the point.

The point is that _*we*_ want to be able to use the system that _*we*_
want to use, and that Gnu/Linux and Windows are cats and dogs. One
meows and the other barks. They're just accidentally both furry and
domesticated mammals.
Post by Munch
Excuse the mistakes, no time to read this through.
No problem, everyone makes typos, especially in longer texts. ;-)
--
With kind regards,

*Aragorn*
(Registered Gnu/Linux user #223157)
Robert Newson
2005-09-23 18:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Aragorn wrote:

...
Post by Aragorn
Likewise, I can play /.mp3's/ and view movie clips. The only things I
have difficulty with are the movie or sound clips in the newer
Microsoft-specific formats, but this is because of my already outdated
distribution.
I wouldn't say that you've got an outdated distribution, but more like
you're unable to get the codecs (or whatever) to be able to view the newer
MS specific formats - the development of which would probably need an
expensive, or [gpl] unreasonable licence.
Post by Aragorn
I can perfectly play older MS multimedia formats.
Do we need bleeding edge all the time?
Post by Aragorn
Another thing I have problems with - again due to the outdated nature of
my distro - are websites with Flash or Flash/Shockwave clips.
I don't have problems with those websites: they have a problem with me not
viewing their content and so they lose out.
Post by Aragorn
Post by Munch
I don't want to ask myself will this DVD play on my computer that I
decide to buy or rent.
I'd rather not ask the same question, but if that's what the movie houses
want, then tough - they'll lose sales (to me); besides, I use proper DVD
players for that.

...
Post by Aragorn
Post by Munch
And people wonder why people use IE. People see the icon on their
desktop and use it. And guess what it works. They browse they web and
it works. Despite the fact that they are gathering spyware along the
way. The same applies to WMP. Why use anything else when what I got
works. In fact I would not be surprised if people buying the media
reduced version of windows will feel frustrated or even cheated when
they discover they cannot play music or movies properly.
If they are surprised then they ought not be let out alone: if the version
of windows they have is the media reduced version (incidently, I notice that
MS didn't charge any less for it; did they?) they they should be aware that
it has been reduced in the media playing facilities...
Post by Aragorn
Yes, I am fully aware of people wanting to be lazy and irresponsible
with their personal computers. But they are also the people to scream
the loudest whenever they have contracted a virus, whenever they are
receiving spam, whenever their own stupidity caused them to fall victim
to /phishing/ - something that doesn't even have anything to do with
the underlying operating system - or when their system starts crashing
or losing performance...
phishing scams failed dramatically on my system as my non-part-of-the-OS-IE
browser didn't give me the false link.

...
Post by Aragorn
Post by Munch
Programmers like to use industry standard IDE's. People don't
want to use VI(I know there are Notepad clones but that is not the
point), VI might have 1000 times the power of Notepad however it just
does not cut it for 99% of users. In there minds it just does not
work.
excuse me, I was a programmer (and still occasionally dabble) and my
standard development environment that I liked to use was csh, vi, cc & dbx,
or Documentor, ed, compiler & built-in OS DATA/BASIC debugger, or GEDIT,
EDDY, compiler & AIDA, or... I've only used 1 IDE and wasn't that impressed
by it. I want to use vi, so according to you I'm not one of the 99% of
users who are a person, so what am I?
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